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As far as Seagal goes I figure I'll weigh in on this. Better late then never.
I liked some of his earlier flicks like hard to kill, and above the law. However his movies seemed to get worse and worse instead of better.
As a MAist he is legit as far as a Aikidoka goes. But IMHO opinion Aikido isn't all that usefull for self defense or realistic fighting applications. It's better suited for those looking to learn about zen and japanese philosophy.
I agree about the movies. On Deadly Ground was his last really good one, and there's a lot of people who don't think it was any good either.
As far as Aikido only being useful for philosophy, I take Aikido classes,, and that's what it's best for. But Aikido is also useful for combat, but only from the POV of " I just want to hold this guy off until the cops show up". If there's little or no chance of help arriving, you're going to need more training.
And I was being serious about Seagal. His size IS intimidating.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
Nah man, I don't think there are many intimidating people in the world.
I only meant in terms of size alone. It's hard to be intimidated by him as a person, because he's only just that-a person. Anyone can lose to anyone else on any given day, and that includes Steven Seagal.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
But Aikido is also useful for combat, but only from the POV of " I just want to hold this guy off until the cops show up". If there's little or no chance of help arriving, you're going to need more training.
If you are talking self defense your first and foremost goal is creating a situation where you can get away. This is why something like Aikido would be much more useful in a self defense situation, where you try to not lose, than in MMA, where you try to win. This, in my opinion, also extends to the dirty type of fighting.
Also, if you are a police officer joint manipulation techniques are useful to get cuffs on someone. This is not in my opinion, but rather in the opinion of a well-decorated, retired NYPD detective and his 25 years of experience.
If you are talking self defense your first and foremost goal is creating a situation where you can get away. This is why something like Aikido would be much more useful in a self defense situation, where you try to not lose, than in MMA, where you try to win. This, in my opinion, also extends to the dirty type of fighting.
Also, if you are a police officer joint manipulation techniques are useful to get cuffs on someone. This is not in my opinion, but rather in the opinion of a well-decorated, retired NYPD detective and his 25 years of experience.
Which is why we never see Aikido in UFC, or any other mma, really. Although I have seen some techniques that were similar to Aikido techniques, but that could just be because the fighter used Judo, which is similar to Aikido anyway.
And as far as police work and Aikido goes, I've heard of a lot of police officers practicing Aikido and loving it. My sensei is actually a police officer, and, although I've never heard him talk about using joint manipulations to get cuffs on a suspect, I'm sure he has and would agree with yon statement.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
Which is why we never see Aikido in UFC, or any other mma, really. Although I have seen some techniques that were similar to Aikido techniques, but that could just be because the fighter used Judo, which is similar to Aikido anyway.
And as far as police work and Aikido goes, I've heard of a lot of police officers practicing Aikido and loving it. My sensei is actually a police officer, and, although I've never heard him talk about using joint manipulations to get cuffs on a suspect, I'm sure he has and would agree with yon statement.
You guys are actually incorrect in your assumption of what it takes to win an MMA match. I have explained this before, but it doesn't seem to stick or you guys choose to ignore it or whatever but here goes:
An important category in judging a fight is something called "Ring Generalship" or "Octagon Control". This is the concept of strategy: Are you able to prevent your opponent from doing what he wants to do and/or exert your will over the opponent.
In theory, if I was an Aikido practicioner I could simply launch my guy all about the ring everytime he came at me. Do that for three 3 minute rounds and you would win the match.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
You guys are actually incorrect in your assumption of what it takes to win an MMA match. I have explained this before, but it doesn't seem to stick or you guys choose to ignore it or whatever but here goes:
An important category in judging a fight is something called "Ring Generalship" or "Octagon Control". This is the concept of strategy: Are you able to prevent your opponent from doing what he wants to do and/or exert your will over the opponent.
In theory, if I was an Aikido practicioner I could simply launch my guy all about the ring everytime he came at me. Do that for three 3 minute rounds and you would win the match.
Huh. See, I guess I misunderstood the term "octagon control". i always thought it was more of a matter of how much space you have to maneuver with, as opposed to your opponent. In that instance controlling the octagon would just mean basically backing your opponent up against the cage. And that would mean pressing forward pretty much all the time, which is not a tactic used in Aikido basically ever.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
Huh. See, I guess I misunderstood the term "octagon control". i always thought it was more of a matter of how much space you have to maneuver with, as opposed to your opponent. In that instance controlling the octagon would just mean basically backing your opponent up against the cage. And that would mean pressing forward pretty much all the time, which is not a tactic used in Aikido basically ever.
Nope, it's not that simple. If you're a wrestler, and all you do in a fight is keep going for shots then two things can happen:
a. You aren't able to get the guy down. In this case the other person wins the "Octagon Control" category.
b. You are able to get your opponent down. In this case, you win the "Octagon Control" category.
If as an Aikido guy your opponent kept trying to hit you and missed and you controlled the pace, tempo, and control then you win.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
You guys are actually incorrect in your assumption of what it takes to win an MMA match. I have explained this before, but it doesn't seem to stick or you guys choose to ignore it or whatever but here goes:
An important category in judging a fight is something called "Ring Generalship" or "Octagon Control". This is the concept of strategy: Are you able to prevent your opponent from doing what he wants to do and/or exert your will over the opponent.
In theory, if I was an Aikido practicioner I could simply launch my guy all about the ring everytime he came at me. Do that for three 3 minute rounds and you would win the match.
But all the octagon control in the world isn't going to matter if a guy gets a submission on you or manages to knock you out. Essentially, for the Aikido guy to win he has to use his art's techniques successfully for the full time where as successful use of many other techniques in submission or striking arts will end the match significantly quicker. He has to not lose for quite a while.
On the other hand, an Aikido guy would need to do one successful technique and escape to not lose in a self defense situation. If he stands and fights (like Seagal does in his movies), he stands no better chance defending himself than he does winning in an MMA match.
It is all statistics, man. It is much easier to try to win by submission or KO than it is to try to win by decision. That's why no one goes into a match planning to win by decision.
But all the octagon control in the world isn't going to matter if a guy gets a submission on you or manages to knock you out. Essentially, for the Aikido guy to win he has to use his art's techniques successfully for the full time where as successful use of many other techniques in submission or striking arts will end the match significantly quicker. He has to not lose for quite a while.
On the other hand, an Aikido guy would need to do one successful technique and escape to not lose in a self defense situation. If he stands and fights (like Seagal does in his movies), he stands no better chance defending himself than he does winning in an MMA match.
It is all statistics, man. It is much easier to try to win by submission or KO than it is to try to win by decision. That's why no one goes into a match planning to win by decision.
I think his point was that it IS possible to win in an MMA format using Aikido, even if it would be rather difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torre
All I can add to this thread is:
You know, I never really noticed just how bad of an actor Steven Seagal was until this. Because now that I think of it...he really never does change his facial expression.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
But all the octagon control in the world isn't going to matter if a guy gets a submission on you or manages to knock you out. Essentially, for the Aikido guy to win he has to use his art's techniques successfully for the full time where as successful use of many other techniques in submission or striking arts will end the match significantly quicker. He has to not lose for quite a while.
On the other hand, an Aikido guy would need to do one successful technique and escape to not lose in a self defense situation. If he stands and fights (like Seagal does in his movies), he stands no better chance defending himself than he does winning in an MMA match.
It is all statistics, man. It is much easier to try to win by submission or KO than it is to try to win by decision. That's why no one goes into a match planning to win by decision.
A successful MMA fighter goes in with the strategy to win the fight by enforcing their will over their opponent. If, while doing this, the opportunity presents itself to end the fight whether it's by submission or KO then you take the opportunity to do so. But to be honest, proper preparation for any fight is to assume it goes the distance and you prepare your gameplan for that concept.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Can Steven Seagal do what he does on film?
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