Tan Tui

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

It would seem more are than not

You have no sense of culture. The mystery of martial arts is part of its attraction. In the self-centered egotistical society you are a part of, where knowledge itself is traded as a commodity, you only see value in terms of power over another. You have no concept of power over yourself. You have no sense of cultural unity, the spirit of the ancients staying with us in the present. Honoring our ancestors and their arts is not a course of action that leads to honoring ourselves as ourselves as honorable beings then equipped to pass that honor onto another's shoulders. The honor is is following in the footsteps of the wise men before us, to travel a path that has been travelled many times before, to involve us in the quests of our ancestors, to seek wisdom not in "improvement" (which is an artifice, as I'll always beat your jiujitsu and wrestling with my broadsword), but in "involvement". When we honor tradition, we are not honoring something "colloquial", "backwards", or some poor asian's schizophrenic concept of "backwater mysticicsm".

We honor the idea of hard work, self-improvement, character-building, and yes, some self-defense. I've always liked the words Kung Fu. They mean skill, effort, and hard work...in anything. Even in the pursuit of self-knowledge.

For persons like yourself, the amassing of knowledge=validation. But when you die, your knowlege means nothing. When you practice, your knowledge is your power over another. But when you are alone, when your mind is left to its own, your knowledge is like a monkey that taunts your better instincts into wild fancies of personal superiority.

What do you care what other people practice?

Take care of yourself, eradicate your ego, and perhaps you'll come to know a small portion of honor.

[47MartialMan]

Lets see, I posted;
But like many arts, they are shrouded by myth, mystery, and inaccurate info.

SirokiFighter replied;
and like many arts they are not?

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

You have no sense of culture.

This was a dumbfounded statement. I have much more culture than you'd ever know.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

The mystery of martial arts is part of its attraction.

I agree. But this mystery sometimes get in the way of reality.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

In the self-centered egotistical society you are a part of, where knowledge itself is traded as a commodity, you only see value in terms of power over another.

What? In what means do I think knowledge is a commodity? Per also, value in terms of power? What value? What power?

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

You have no concept of power over yourself. You have no sense of cultural unity, the spirit of the ancients staying with us in the present. Honoring our ancestors and their arts is not a course of action that leads to honoring ourselves as ourselves as honorable beings then equipped to pass that honor onto another's shoulders.

Another dumbfounded statement. I have power over myself in many situations. Rather I choose to not agree what your idea of control/power, is not to state I have none. Cultural unity? Am I to understand that you think I don't honor ancestors, and from this, I am not cultured? Am I to understand, that I haven't, here and in person, bestowed upon others a sense of culture, and conviction? I think you have been misunderstanding much.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

The honor is is following in the footsteps of the wise men before us, to travel a path that has been travelled many times before, to involve us in the quests of our ancestors, to seek wisdom not in "improvement" (which is an artifice, as I'll always beat your jiujitsu and wrestling with my broadsword), but in "involvement".

There weren't so many wisemen before us that were actually wise. Some were doing other things for other reasons. I dont remember going around saying that I can beat anyone or their art with another. I dont remember beating the "this vs that drum".
*BOLD* Of course one should seek wisdom, but also one should IMPROve.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

When we honor tradition, we are not honoring something "colloquial", "backwards", or some poor asian's schizophrenic concept of "backwater mysticicsm".

I dont agree. There is much Asian schizophrenic concept of "backwater mysticicsm", in many martial arts. This is why many current martial artists seem to frown upon TMA.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

We honor the idea of hard work, self-improvement, character-building, and yes, some self-defense. I've always liked the words Kung Fu. They mean skill, effort, and hard work...in anything. Even in the pursuit of self-knowledge.

I agree. But people should know, that it wasnt meant, initally, to mean a martial art, or particular martial art style. the term applies to anything, as it is a misnomer that most people think it to only, incorrectly, represent a martial art style.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

For persons like yourself, the amassing of knowledge=validation.

I didnt get this.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

But when you die, your knowlege means nothing.

How do you or will you know? I think my knowledge came a long way with many I cam into contact with. And, for your info, I have a few books watining to be publish on other subjects.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

When you practice, your knowledge is your power over another.

This seems to contradict your statement, you only see value in terms of power over another. I think many martial artists who physically pratice any tactic, is looking to hone there skills to over-power another.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

But when you are alone, when your mind is left to its own, your knowledge is like a monkey that taunts your better instincts into wild fancies of personal superiority.

Actually, I thought you were the Monkey and I was the Crane.
Well maybe not a crane but a Ol Buzzard.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

What do you care what other people practice?

I dont care what someone practices. Whatever "floats their boat". Everyone has something to say about someone elses' art/practice.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Take care of yourself, eradicate your ego, and perhaps you'll come to know a small portion of honor.

It is human nature to have ego. We all have it. Lack of honor? Depends on what you define honor as being.

I think you, like some others, get so bend out of shape the moment someone has something different to say apart from your views.






Chevy Sucks

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

This was a dumbfounded statement. I have much more culture than you'd ever know.

You only honor yourself and your art. Your method of argumentation, your lack of pride in the community of MA on the whole, and your pride in your conceptualization of the truth shows your self-centered egotism.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I agree. But this mystery sometimes get in the way of reality.

What reality? The reality of cage fighting? The reality of medieval feudal battlefields of Japan and China? Which reality? What time period? What tradition? What religion? With your clearly non-Buddhist/non-Taoist perspectives, which you may be vaguely familiar with through Western translations in Penguin Book format, you might have an idea of what these constitute, but your culture is the culture of capitalism and western philosophy and religion. Try discussing improvement and reality with the Dalai Lama, and walk away a humbled man.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

What? In what means do I think knowledge is a commodity? Per also, value in terms of power? What value? What power?

I don't know, what's your rank on here? Why do you feel the need to comment on EVERYONE's comments as the voice of skepticism and denial? Well, because you have no self-confidence. This will come with wisdom, however. And you will realize you have no power, no value.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Another dumbfounded statement. I have power over myself in many situations. Rather I choose to not agree what your idea of control/power, is not to state I have none. Cultural unity? Am I to understand that you think I don't honor ancestors, and from this, I am not cultured? Am I to understand, that I haven't, here and in person, bestowed upon others a sense of culture, and conviction? I think you have been misunderstanding much.

You think you have power over yourself, but it is the SELF, this self-conceiving phantom of the mind, that you are enveloped in. Perhaps you should start meditation.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

There weren't so many wisemen before us that were actually wise.

I agree. Clearly all of our modern ideas popped into our heads out of thin air.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Some were doing other things for other reasons. I dont remember going around saying that I can beat anyone or their art with another. I dont remember beating the "this vs that drum".
*BOLD* Of course one should seek wisdom, but also one should IMPROve.

Improvement.....nope. There is only change in nature. You trade one path for another. You lessen suffering if you choose the wise path. This is not an improvement over the other path, increasing suffering. Yin and Yang. Just different paths of change. But when you become wiser, you will realize that the paths didn't change, and you didn't change--rather, you realized there was no change, because your Identity, as you know it, is a self-conceived (rooted in the mind by relfection on a manufactured ego) phantasm with no concrete existence.

Seek the Buddha mind, and perhaps you'll understand.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I dont agree. There is much Asian schizophrenic concept of "backwater mysticicsm", in many martial arts. This is why many current martial artists seem to frown upon TMA.

And this is why many traditional martial artists look on the West and say--they have no sense of themselves. They chase food, luxury, cars and clothes, commodification, easy-fixes to complex problems, and everything they can buy in their supermarket culture. We would call that the "backwards values of capitalism".

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

How do you or will you know? I think my knowledge came a long way with many I cam into contact with. And, for your info, I have a few books watining to be publish on other subjects.

One gains information from books. One gains knowledge from reflection and meditation.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

This seems to contradict your statement, you only see value in terms of power over another. I think many martial artists who physically pratice any tactic, is looking to hone there skills to over-power another.

But, they must first overcome themselves--their own personal limitiations in thought, action, endurance, and coordination, by training. Overpowering someone whose ideology is one of self-defeating skepticism and egotism (yours, I say with regret), is no hard feat.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

It is human nature to have ego. We all have it. Lack of honor? Depends on what you define honor as being.

Is this what your capital culture has informed you of? Pick up Sogyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, and see if you agree with what you've just stated.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I think you, like some others, get so bend out of shape the moment someone has something different to say apart from your views.

I don't bend out of shape. I am formless. I welcome differing opinions when stated in respect. For your disrespect, I will direct you to your Dim Mak thread, and your position, which is stated out of ignorance for the art altogether, and moves "Forward?" from there......

Samsara is not all it's cracked up to be. Why not open your mind, rather than closing it and taking delight in the crashing of the gates?

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

You only honor yourself and your art. Your method of argumentation, your lack of pride in the community of MA on the whole, and your pride in your conceptualization of the truth shows your self-centered egotism.

I think as humans, we all possess a degree of ego. Lack of pride in the MA community? Hmmmnn, I dont go around stating that CMA illumines all. MMA is like a sewer drain, which sucks at the radiance, yet is never fulfilled......

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

What reality? The reality of cage fighting? The reality of medieval feudal battlefields of Japan and China? Which reality? What time period? What tradition? What religion? With your clearly non-Buddhist/non-Taoist perspectives, which you may be vaguely familiar with through Western translations in Penguin Book format, you might have an idea of what these constitute, but your culture is the culture of capitalism and western philosophy and religion. Try discussing improvement and reality with the Dalai Lama, and walk away a humbled man.

Hmmmn, I see where you may be getting into the subject of Buddhism here.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

I don't know, what's your rank on here? Why do you feel the need to comment on EVERYONE's comments as the voice of skepticism and denial? Well, because you have no self-confidence. This will come with wisdom, however. And you will realize you have no power, no value.You think you have power over yourself, but it is the SELF, this self-conceiving phantom of the mind, that you are enveloped in. Perhaps you should start meditation.

Sounds more of Buddhist overtones....

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

I agree. Clearly all of our modern ideas popped into our heads out of thin air.

Looks like your'e trying to be a poet....

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Improvement.....nope. There is only change in nature. You trade one path for another. You lessen suffering if you choose the wise path. This is not an improvement over the other path, increasing suffering. Yin and Yang. Just different paths of change. But when you become wiser, you will realize that the paths didn't change, and you didn't change--rather, you realized there was no change, because your Identity, as you know it, is a self-conceived (rooted in the mind by relfection on a manufactured ego) phantasm with no concrete existence.

More Buddhist related....

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Seek the Buddha mind, and perhaps you'll understand.

Per above....

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

And this is why many traditional martial artists look on the West and say--they have no sense of themselves. They chase food, luxury, cars and clothes, commodification, easy-fixes to complex problems, and everything they can buy in their supermarket culture. We would call that the "backwards values of capitalism".

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

One gains information from books. One gains knowledge from reflection and meditation.

Another atttempt of procuring Buddhist ideas....

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

But, they must first overcome themselves--their own personal limitiations in thought, action, endurance, and coordination, by training. Overpowering someone whose ideology is one of self-defeating skepticism and egotism (yours, I say with regret), is no hard feat.

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Is this what your capital culture has informed you of? Pick up Sogyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, and see if you agree with what you've just stated.

As I thought........

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

I don't bend out of shape. I am formless. I welcome differing opinions when stated in respect. For your disrespect, I will direct you to your Dim Mak thread, and your position, which is stated out of ignorance for the art altogether, and moves "Forward?" from there......

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Samsara is not all it's cracked up to be. Why not open your mind, rather than closing it and taking delight in the crashing of the gates?

Why will you not open your mind and see the many fable and untruths in many (not all) CMA/TMA?


Your posting seems to be of the poetic sense along the lines of Buddhism. However, depending on the school, you may have a large misunderstanding of it. I know many people who seek the path of Buddhism, only to misunderstand the subject in whole.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Why will you not open your mind and see the many fable and untruths in many (not all) CMA/TMA?
.

Why not open your mind further and see that fables and "untruths" centered around martial arts are a part of martial arts altogether. Every gym has it's "I wouldn't mess with that guy" kind of figure; and I'm sure most people have stories to tell about that "never mess with him" kind of guy. And I'm sure, depending on who does the telling, he begins to do things he never did, say some things a bit wiser than he said, and pretend to a wit he didn't possess. Untruths.....I'm guessing that you mean "fantasy-based MA" like the wrist lock of death, etc, and applications that are more difficult and subtle (Dim Mak) than tournament and ring-based punch A, block B, kick C, shoot, guard, punch, triangle, etc.

Who cares? It's part of the tradition, and it doesn't have to conform to your standards. Why don't I do groundfighting and your reality-based MA? I do, a little. As much as I've been taught and feel the need to do. I'm not going to step into an iron cage, so I don't need a shootfighting, BJJ game plan. And I seriously doubt I'll have to face a BJJ master in any mugging scenario or home invasion any time soon. Meanwhile, I hope all of the home invading BJJ criminals are practicing for a scenario where they enter the home of a man trained in the art of stealth, swordfighting and the katana. Do you think they're ready?

Meanwhile, I'll follow the philsophies of my teachers, teach others the path, and hopefully increase their self-confidence, self-knowledge, health, and happiness. Tell me: do you do the same? I hope you do.

Maybe I'm not the one with a skewed perception of what is real and what is just a phantasm of a threat? LOL......

[John Takeshi]

In the meantime, perhaps you'd like to share your thoughts on Tan Tui.

What do you think of the structure of the form, and what do you think it is teaching the beginning student, as it's the foundation and lifeblood of more advanced Longfist?

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Why not open your mind further and see that fables and "untruths" centered around martial arts are a part of martial arts altogether. Every gym has it's "I wouldn't mess with that guy" kind of figure; and I'm sure most people have stories to tell about that "never mess with him" kind of guy. And I'm sure, depending on who does the telling, he begins to do things he never did, say some things a bit wiser than he said, and pretend to a wit he didn't possess. Untruths.....I'm guessing that you mean "fantasy-based MA" like the wrist lock of death, etc, and applications that are more difficult and subtle (Dim Mak) than tournament and ring-based punch A, block B, kick C, shoot, guard, punch, triangle, etc.

Who cares? It's part of the tradition, and it doesn't have to conform to your standards. Why don't I do groundfighting and your reality-based MA? I do, a little. As much as I've been taught and feel the need to do. I'm not going to step into an iron cage, so I don't need a shootfighting, BJJ game plan. And I seriously doubt I'll have to face a BJJ master in any mugging scenario or home invasion any time soon. Meanwhile, I hope all of the home invading BJJ criminals are practicing for a scenario where they enter the home of a man trained in the art of stealth, swordfighting and the katana. Do you think they're ready?

Meanwhile, I'll follow the philsophies of my teachers, teach others the path, and hopefully increase their self-confidence, self-knowledge, health, and happiness. Tell me: do you do the same? I hope you do.

Maybe I'm not the one with a skewed perception of what is real and what is just a phantasm of a threat? LOL......

Well, your post was looking ok until your last tag line. Wass that line really neccessary?

As for Tan Tui, I thought it was Northern, though I disassociate it from Shaolin.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Well, your post was looking ok until your last tag line. Wass that line really neccessary?

As for Tan Tui, I thought it was Northern, though I disassociate it from Shaolin.

Longfist is northern.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Longfist is northern.

One would think that most fist styles are Southern, whereas leg styles are Norhern.

[WC_Lun]

Longfist is indeed northern. Its the stances that make it northern or southern. Taller, shorter stances will be southern, while longer, deeper stances will be northern. Then you get systems that mix the two and make everything more confusing

There are of course different names other than northern and southern. For example, longfist is accepted as synonymous with northern while short arm is synonymous with southern.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Longfist is indeed northern. Its the stances that make it northern or southern. Taller, shorter stances will be southern, while longer, deeper stances will be northern. Then you get systems that mix the two and make everything more confusing

There are of course different names other than northern and southern. For example, longfist is accepted as synonymous with northern while short arm is synonymous with southern.

And why, tell the folks, Northern deals primarily with long range and Southern with short range?

[Sake Sipper]

This thread is great. Maybe these two can continue to troll each other for eternity and leave the rest of the forum alone.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Sake Sipper

This thread is great. Maybe these two can continue to troll each other for eternity and leave the rest of the forum alone.

Look who's trolling for responses.....