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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Well i have a belief behind the origin of martial arts which i am convinced of because a taekwondo master told me it. It agrees with the point that martial arts were developed because they were needed. The theory is that they started in India. Tribesman needing to cross the himalayas were always attacked and robbed by bandits on the way. This made them have the need to develop fighting skills to protect themselves and cross the himalayas. Once they had developed these skills of how to tackle someone in a confrontation they successfully crossed the himalayas and then spread into china which is why some think martial arts originated from there.
Yeah good point. But if you look at the history of invention, you'll see most were made by accident. I cannot remember one of the most famous inventions but it was found by accident due to vivisection. However, I may be incorrect in this but I know for sure that Classical Conditioning (Pyschology) was found by accident. A scientist was trying to find out about the salivation properties and found that dogs would salivate before food was brought out and that sparked a new direction in psychology.
Something to think about, no doubt, but in Martial Arts it is a bit different, I do agree. But one thing is for damn sure, they did indeed learn through trial and error, just like students learn today!
I highly disagree that most inventions were made by accident. Hard work goes into inventing. A lot of calculation and engineering. Studies to confirm the methods of Classical Conditioning were inspired by an interesting observation in a separate study, but I don't think it is fair to say the whole thing was an accident.
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Shaolin Kung Fu, Kickboxing
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The discovery of classical conditioning was made by accident. Like you said, a seperate study was being conducted and they did put in hard work. But because they were not intentionally saying, "I wonder if we can condition dogs to salivate on cue." but instead, wanted to see the properties of saliva.
__________________ "The more our minds advance, the more potential we see in ourselves. The more potential we see, the better weapons we become." - Stash
The discovery of classical conditioning was made by accident. Like you said, a seperate study was being conducted and they did put in hard work. But because they were not intentionally saying, "I wonder if we can condition dogs to salivate on cue." but instead, wanted to see the properties of saliva.
Yes, but I am saying that Classical Conditioning studies grew out of an interesting observation. The saliva experiment was only the inspiration, not the persperation that goes into invention.
i know it is a known fact MA was originated in the east. as far as a specific place in the east i don't know and i'm not sure if that really matters to me. just like Thomas Edison created the light bulb and now we have flashlights,that's what MA is like to me. but is probably good for a serious practioner to know where MA originated to better understand where they want to take it.
__________________
It is regrettable that a person(s) treat a man who is valuable to them well, and a man that is worthless to them poorly.
how is it a fact, many martial arts could be long dead. I'm pretty sure that there are african and american martial arts just as old as the asian ones.
For the origin of fighting, the history begins with the primal law of nature: Survival & self-preservation.
Therefore, fighting existed from the very first creatures on the planet vying for the same space in which to live.
For martial arts "proper", consult the beginnings of human civilisation. As an evolutionary "left-over", fighting is still with us, as it always has been throughout the natural history of the world.
Arguably, the first civilisations were that of Sumeria, Mesopotamia & of course, Egypt.
There are plenty of illustrative evidence of fighting, but the earliest decent description of anything clearly martial art as opposed to simple fighting (i.e. evidencing clear motive & experience) I can find is from Egypt.
The following is a translation of an Egyptian Papyrus (dated to the 1st-2nd Century BC) which appears in "Combat Sports in the Ancient World" By Michael B. Poliakoff:
"...You underhook with your right arm. You wrap your arm around his, where he has undertaken the underhook, and attack the side with your left foot. You push away your left hand. You force the hold and fight it out. - You turn around. You fight it out with a grip on both sides..."
There are about 6 more parts included in the book, which I would recommend to anyone seriously interested in this thread.
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
how is it a fact, many martial arts could be long dead. I'm pretty sure that there are african and american martial arts just as old as the asian ones.
i don't think any MA would be considered long dead or non-existent. things always seem to recycle themselves from my understanding. would Africa be considered west or east? i'm puzzled on this.
__________________
It is regrettable that a person(s) treat a man who is valuable to them well, and a man that is worthless to them poorly.
The problem with martial arts is that many people associate "martial arts" with the East. Almost as if martial arts are a uniquely asian phenomenon.
Martial Arts definately originate in the minds of man, who, in their aim to control the harrowing experience of violence seek to create schemes in which defence will be much more secure.
It is a sad truth that potential harm could be caused to you by another human being. There is no manner of protection you can give yourself, but to prepare for the worst. It makes no difference how big or strong you are, how intelligent you are, or how fast your reactions. You alone will not be enough to defend a gang, & therefore the fear is always present.
In that famous philosophical & political text, the Leviathan (1651), Hobbes argued this case most succinctly. He stated that although some men may be stronger or more intelligent than others in their natural state, none are so strong as to be beyond a fear of violent death. This consequently justifies self-defence as man's highest necessity.
This necessity, though slightly pessimistic is at the same time realistic. Even those with a “Love thy neighbour” philosophy recognise the natural necessity for self-defence. Evidence even suggests that Jesus himself was said to have believed in the need for self-defence. In the Gnostic gospel of St. Thomas, Jesus tells Thomas; “Fortunate is the man who knows where the brigands will enter, so that he may get up, muster his domain, and arm himself before they invade.“
So the case for self-defence as a necessary human endeavour is apparent. It does not matter how much money you have, how many bodyguards you surround yourself with, the fear of being attacked is a homo-psychological “ball & chain”.
From the earliest days of man, he was a weak and fragile animal. With a look at the natural world, one can deduce mankind's natural weakness - the lack of physical hunting weapons (i.e. sharp claws and/or teeth). We are not physiologically designed for hunting and catching prey, and thus our natural weakness is self-evident.
From the earliest man who raised his arm against an attack from another, or clenched his fist in anger, this was the first martial art. Granted: it wasn't very sophisticated, but it is this kind of impetus that created the concept of martial arts. When hunting, he created tools to kill his prey. It is also no doubt that these weapons became handy against attackers as well. Man is naturally quite weak when compared to the rest of the natural world. Man has no sharp teeth, nor large claws.
Paradoxically, this disadvantage is his advantage. Lack of natural weapons forced early man to use his greatest asset: his brain.
Man created his own weapons and tools. Bows and Arrows, javelin, spears, and axes became man's version of the sharp teeth and large claws. These weapons were employed not only against man's prey, but also against his tribal neighbours and attackers. Man is a social creature and thus interaction no-doubt took place. And with social interaction also come social disagreements and social warfare. Thus, man used martial arts against man.
Consequently, we have logically traced, from the very point of axiom, the impetus for the creation of the martial arts as a human endevour outside of any nationalistic or geographical illusions.
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
I'm going to call you on your claim that "Man has no natural weapons." Orangutans, our closest genetic cousins, are hiddeously strong. Although we don't have claws, teeth or other natural slashing weapons, we were very capable of good old fasion blunt force trauma. It would be as if I said a staff or kali stick isn't a weapon because it isn't a sword.
Slowly humanity evolved and lost the 'brute strength' attribute as brute strength is less efficent than 'problem solving.' And so the 'brute strength' people were more likely to starve to death in the face of the domestication of plants and animals.
Of Course, Orangutans are extremely strong, as well as Gorillas, even mankind's closest relative; Homo Neandertalis, based upon studies of bones structure were up to 10 times stronger. A Neanderthal 5 year old would have been as physcially developed as a human 8 year old. Furthermore, even less developed human species; Australopithacus, Homo erectus etc were all stronger in comparison to Homo Sapien.
Could you take on a tiger, orangutan, or even a Angry Cow?
We need to consider man's power & natural weapons relative to the predators & animals which surrounded him.
Mankind is peculiarly much weaker than many animals of the same size in the natural world. Just as many men today could not fight an orangutan, neither could our ancestors; so at the heart of the issue is the physical deficiency of homo sapien compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. No amount of our ancestors "battering" or natural percussive attacks were enough to make mankind a sensible predator & no where near the top of the food chain.
So I stick to my original "a priori" and consider that mankind does not have any natural weapons. They thus had to create weapons. However, that is not to say that weapons developed BEFORE martial arts proper. But this is an issue that will have to reside in hypothosis, since we'll never really know for sure...
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
Origin of the Martial Arts in general
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