Most violent martial art?

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by The End

That's very good and well, but since KM is not designed for competition, I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.

I'm not comparing them as an art, I'm comparing them in terms of a way to judge the instructor. This comparison would hold true for every Martial Art that has competition in it's curriculum, it makes it easy to judge how good the school is. That's the only point I was trying to make, I'm not saying the art itself is good/bad. I'm very indifferent to Krav Maga myself, it holds little interest for me because I'm not training for self defense reasons per say.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I'm not comparing them as an art, I'm comparing them in terms of a way to judge the instructor. This comparison would hold true for every Martial Art that has competition in it's curriculum, it makes it easy to judge how good the school is. That's the only point I was trying to make, I'm not saying the art itself is good/bad. I'm very indifferent to Krav Maga myself, it holds little interest for me because I'm not training for self defense reasons per say.

Some training doesn't lend itself to tournament play. I'm a black sash in a system that is very good for tournament play. It is just flashy enough and the forms take decent general physical skills. It can be modified for tournament fighting fairly easily. However, what I do now would take a very advanced martial artist to recognize a person doing the form well, since it is pretty basic. Since we train for self-defense not tourments, our trained reactions are not in line with what would be appropriate in a tournament.

I've won tournaments before and while proud of that accomplishment, I know it doesn't have much to do with what I do now. Its because I am training for a different purpose/mind set.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I'm not comparing them as an art, I'm comparing them in terms of a way to judge the instructor. This comparison would hold true for every Martial Art that has competition in it's curriculum, it makes it easy to judge how good the school is. That's the only point I was trying to make, I'm not saying the art itself is good/bad. I'm very indifferent to Krav Maga myself, it holds little interest for me because I'm not training for self defense reasons per say.

It is hard to judge a art/instructors for competiton verses non.

Yet, you hold that BJJ has self defense applications.

Double edge sword - competition/self defense.

[The End]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I'm not comparing them as an art, I'm comparing them in terms of a way to judge the instructor. This comparison would hold true for every Martial Art that has competition in it's curriculum, it makes it easy to judge how good the school is. That's the only point I was trying to make, I'm not saying the art itself is good/bad. I'm very indifferent to Krav Maga myself, it holds little interest for me because I'm not training for self defense reasons per say.

I respect you, but I am not sure that the whole competition to weed out the fakes theory holds much water. At least not in the sense of a style being practical. Since you don't train for self defense I will give you two examples of why I believe this one as far as practical self defense and one example for those who are competition minded.

When i went to NAGA this past April, one of my fellow students who was also competed was talking about his strategy he planned to use. His strategy, since he claimed he wasn't good at take downs was, pull guard and then try and sweep and get top position and hold it. Even if he couldn't get a tap, he figured he would win by points. That is exactly what he did, pulled guard, wasted half the match just holding the opponent in guard and then finally managing to get a "bumping roll-over sweep" where he just stayed in mount for the other half of the match. he did this in almost all his matches. Problem is, this is not practical. In the street, if you jumped guard on me, you would be rewarded for that mistake by having the back of your head permanently becoming a part of the sidewalk and as a parting gift, a good headbutt to your face. As far as the competition went, he was fighting in novice division so chances were 50/50 that either he had a superior knack for maintaining mount, or that his opponent had lousy mount escape defense technique. Either way, he went on to win second place. IMHO, it didn't prove anything except he was good at jumping guard and maintaining mount against other novices.

For an example of competition being a poor judge of the good from the bad, take a division of 8 white belts. Two of the fighters have been at it for almost three years and are very good, the remaining 6 are relatively new and have anywhere from 3 months to a year in. It is a single elimination match, the 2 best fighter are up first, one of the best beats the other of course, now he has nobody left to even offer him much of a challenge. he destroys all the others whereas the other top of the line guy was eliminated right away and therefore, doesn't place. How do you say "hey, the one guy rose to the top and fought like a spartan and has achieved a great victory and the guy who didn't place was a fake."
Tournaments can indeed prove some fighters but not always. They can be manipulated. In my first example, it was something I saw with my own eyes and the guy who placed didn't convince me of anything.

[The End]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Sometimes he does that, fruit can mean fag, fag can mean cigarette......

LMFAO!!!!! That was good.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by The End

I respect you, but I am not sure that the whole competition to weed out the fakes theory holds much water. At least not in the sense of a style being practical. Since you don't train for self defense I will give you two examples of why I believe this one as far as practical self defense and one example for those who are competition minded.

When i went to NAGA this past April, one of my fellow students who was also competed was talking about his strategy he planned to use. His strategy, since he claimed he wasn't good at take downs was, pull guard and then try and sweep and get top position and hold it. Even if he couldn't get a tap, he figured he would win by points. That is exactly what he did, pulled guard, wasted half the match just holding the opponent in guard and then finally managing to get a "bumping roll-over sweep" where he just stayed in mount for the other half of the match. he did this in almost all his matches. Problem is, this is not practical. In the street, if you jumped guard on me, you would be rewarded for that mistake by having the back of your head permanently becoming a part of the sidewalk and as a parting gift, a good headbutt to your face. As far as the competition went, he was fighting in novice division so chances were 50/50 that either he had a superior knack for maintaining mount, or that his opponent had lousy mount escape defense technique. Either way, he went on to win second place. IMHO, it didn't prove anything except he was good at jumping guard and maintaining mount against other novices.

The End,

You know I respect you as well but I guarantee if you and I got into a fight you would have no chance in my guard...no offense. I know you think you could smash my head and headbutt me and all those wonderful things people always say they are going to do but you don't understand how easy it is for someone with 10 years of BJJ to control you in the guard. I would either break your arm, leg, choke you or sweep you before you had much idea of what was going on I am quite sure.

As for holding mount...are you trying to say that holding mount is a bad thing for self defense? We may need to have a conversation about the level of BJJ instruction you're receiving if you think that is a bad thing to do.

For an example of competition being a poor judge of the good from the bad, take a division of 8 white belts. Two of the fighters have been at it for almost three years and are very good, the remaining 6 are relatively new and have anywhere from 3 months to a year in. It is a single elimination match, the 2 best fighter are up first, one of the best beats the other of course, now he has nobody left to even offer him much of a challenge. he destroys all the others whereas the other top of the line guy was eliminated right away and therefore, doesn't place. How do you say "hey, the one guy rose to the top and fought like a spartan and has achieved a great victory and the guy who didn't place was a fake."
Tournaments can indeed prove some fighters but not always. They can be manipulated. In my first example, it was something I saw with my own eyes and the guy who placed didn't convince me of anything.

You're talking about one competition! I'm talking about competition records. Of course a good fighter can get eliminated first round. A good boxer can also get KO'ed by a wild haymaker and a BJJ black belt can get tapped by a blue belt.

Any of these scenarios is possible, of course.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by The End

I respect you, but I am not sure that the whole competition to weed out the fakes theory holds much water. At least not in the sense of a style being practical. Since you don't train for self defense I will give you two examples of why I believe this one as far as practical self defense and one example for those who are competition minded.

When i went to NAGA this past April, one of my fellow students who was also competed was talking about his strategy he planned to use. His strategy, since he claimed he wasn't good at take downs was, pull guard and then try and sweep and get top position and hold it. Even if he couldn't get a tap, he figured he would win by points. That is exactly what he did, pulled guard, wasted half the match just holding the opponent in guard and then finally managing to get a "bumping roll-over sweep" where he just stayed in mount for the other half of the match. he did this in almost all his matches. Problem is, this is not practical. In the street, if you jumped guard on me, you would be rewarded for that mistake by having the back of your head permanently becoming a part of the sidewalk and as a parting gift, a good headbutt to your face. As far as the competition went, he was fighting in novice division so chances were 50/50 that either he had a superior knack for maintaining mount, or that his opponent had lousy mount escape defense technique. Either way, he went on to win second place. IMHO, it didn't prove anything except he was good at jumping guard and maintaining mount against other novices.

For an example of competition being a poor judge of the good from the bad, take a division of 8 white belts. Two of the fighters have been at it for almost three years and are very good, the remaining 6 are relatively new and have anywhere from 3 months to a year in. It is a single elimination match, the 2 best fighter are up first, one of the best beats the other of course, now he has nobody left to even offer him much of a challenge. he destroys all the others whereas the other top of the line guy was eliminated right away and therefore, doesn't place. How do you say "hey, the one guy rose to the top and fought like a spartan and has achieved a great victory and the guy who didn't place was a fake."
Tournaments can indeed prove some fighters but not always. They can be manipulated. In my first example, it was something I saw with my own eyes and the guy who placed didn't convince me of anything.

Hey. Dont talk about grappling. All of that stuff that works in competition, works in the street.

[The End]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

The End,


As for holding mount...are you trying to say that holding mount is a bad thing for self defense? We may need to have a conversation about the level of BJJ instruction you're receiving if you think that is a bad thing to do.

No indeed, it's not a bad thing at all, but what you are forgetting is that in a BJJ competition, you are leaving out so many things. there are no punches, there are no elbow strikes, there are no people grabbing a hold of your face and tearing skin, no kicking, no slamming, no headbutting and on and on. It's much easier to hold a mount or do all those neat things when someone is in your guard when you remove all those other things. As I was saying with my first example, yes he held mount but that example had to do with how practical is just sitting with someone mounted when none of the above in the real world?

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

It is hard to judge a art/instructors for competiton verses non.

Yet, you hold that BJJ has self defense applications.

Double edge sword - competition/self defense.

I hold that BJJ is a good fighting art, it has proven itself well in scenarios that I can see with my own two eyes for proof. To that end, I began training in BJJ because of what I saw Royce Gracie pulling off in the UFC.

10 years later, I am PAST training for self defense, I think I had enough to know how to handle myself in most self defense situations by the time I was handed my purple belt. If all I was interested was how to handle myself in the streets I could have stopped then.

The great thing about the BJJ community is that I am NOTHING compared to the guys out there training right now for high level competition. I keep training because those are my goals, to hang with those guys. Not some drunk idiot in a bar. My sights are a little higher than that. In order to be competitive at a high level in BJJ competition you need to be on a higher level than what it takes to be ready for a street fight.

So you can see why we laugh when you guys start talking about how you would just headbutt us in the guard and that would be it.

[The End]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

You're talking about one competition! I'm talking about competition records. Of course a good fighter can get eliminated first round. A good boxer can also get KO'ed by a wild haymaker and a BJJ black belt can get tapped by a blue belt.

Any of these scenarios is possible, of course.

One thing to keep in mind is that records can be manipulated by "sandbagging" It happens quite a bit. a guy is a wrestler for 4 years, decides he wasnt to try BJJ, puts in a GI, does it for a year and enters competitions as a novice grappler and get to make mince meat out of people who have about 6 months or maybe a little more in grappling experience Just so they can win awards. It happens at NAGA and it happens at Grapplers Quest rather often.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by The End

No indeed, it's not a bad thing at all, but what you are forgetting is that in a BJJ competition, you are leaving out so many things. there are no punches, there are no elbow strikes, there are no people grabbing a hold of your face and tearing skin, no kicking, no slamming, no headbutting and on and on. It's much easier to hold a mount or do all those neat things when someone is in your guard when you remove all those other things. As I was saying with my first example, yes he held mount but that example had to do with how practical is just sitting with someone mounted when none of the above in the real world?

Hence the BJJ/JJ/Grappling dilema, taking on a new form - Cross training, eclectic, taking on a new term "Mixed Martial Arts" .....

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I hold that BJJ is a good fighting art, it has proven itself well in scenarios that I can see with my own two eyes for proof. To that end, I began training in BJJ because of what I saw Royce Gracie pulling off in the UFC.

10 years later, I am PAST training for self defense, I think I had enough to know how to handle myself in most self defense situations by the time I was handed my purple belt. If all I was interested was how to handle myself in the streets I could have stopped then.

The great thing about the BJJ community is that I am NOTHING compared to the guys out there training right now for high level competition. I keep training because those are my goals, to hang with those guys. Not some drunk idiot in a bar. My sights are a little higher than that. In order to be competitive at a high level in BJJ competition you need to be on a higher level than what it takes to be ready for a street fight.

So you can see why we laugh when you guys start talking about how you would just headbutt us in the guard and that would be it.

"You Guys"

I laugh when "you guys" talk about TMA and MMA, though at one time TMA was MMA. And many were doing MMA before such was termed.

Average guy street fight.......

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by The End

No indeed, it's not a bad thing at all, but what you are forgetting is that in a BJJ competition, you are leaving out so many things. there are no punches, there are no elbow strikes, there are no people grabbing a hold of your face and tearing skin, no kicking, no slamming, no headbutting and on and on. It's much easier to hold a mount or do all those neat things when someone is in your guard when you remove all those other things. As I was saying with my first example, yes he held mount but that example had to do with how practical is just sitting with someone mounted when none of the above in the real world?

Let me try to explain how.

In order to be good at grappling there are some basic concepts that are necessary to understand. Let's look at guard first.

When I have guard, I need to control your arms because you are going to be using your arms to control my hips/legs. So, first thing I am looking to do in any guard position is control your arms. From there, I am trying to stay close. That means I either bring you down to me or I try to go get you and bring you down. From there, I have the ability to move my hips under you and control you that much better.

So, at no time should I be sitting back letting you use your arms IN ANY WAY. This holds true for the guard WITH OR WITHOUT PUNCHES.

So...you are going to have a hard time punching me when I have control of your arms and you can't get posture.

Now mount.

A good mount position involves my legs being as much UNDER your arms as possible, preferably up by your arm pits. This takes away your ability to use your shoulders well which pretty much eliminates your arms from the picture. Know why? CAUSE YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR ARMS ESCAPE THE MOUNT. So I control your arms whole maintaining my base to not lose position.

The End, you are used to rolling with people who may not understand these concepts well. Control of one's ability to use his arms, legs, hips, head are CRITICAL for any grappling. This just happens to translate well for MMA/Self defense as well.

And don't forget, while you're looking for all those dirty tricks you're assuming I won't be doing them to you first. Why do you think I won't bite you, rip your face, kick your groin?

I guarantee you I will be in a better position for these things than you will.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

And don't forget, while you're looking for all those dirty tricks you're assuming I won't be doing them to you first. Why do you think I won't bite you, rip your face, kick your groin?

I guarantee you I will be in a better position for these things than you will.

HENCE WHY MANY GRAPPLERS SAY THE RULES OF THE UFC CAN PROTECT BOTH WAYS.....

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

"You Guys"

I laugh when "you guys" talk about TMA and MMA, though at one time TMA was MMA. And many were doing MMA before such was termed.

Average guy street fight.......

47MM,

MMA implies training in the following disciplines:

Wrestling
Submission
Boxing
Kickboxin

I have heard you explain many times on this forum how you were cross training long before MMA became popular and therefore have been doing MMA for years. So, can you please give us your experience in those areas listed above? Please include years training in the art, and whom you trained with and when.

Thanks!