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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Well, believe it or not, I definitely see the uses of BJJ and other grappling arts in Corrections/Law Enforcement. I have used them from time to time, I have used an Osoto_Gari throw on an inmate, I have choked people out, have used standing arm locks, fish hooked one guy and so on. On the other hand, i also am well aware that the situation involved me and one other person and no home-made weapons were involved.
The thing that really sucks about these threads is it starts out a good discussion and ends up a pi$$ing contests which i think is not needed.
I agree with the pissing contest part for sure!
I would have LOVED to seen you Osoto Garo someone! LOL! Man, that guy must have been like "What the hell was that?"
LOL!
__________________ Whats so bad about a criminal teaching martial arts?
- Energizerbunny63
Well, believe it or not, I definitely see the uses of BJJ and other grappling arts in Corrections/Law Enforcement. I have used them from time to time, I have used an Osoto_Gari throw on an inmate, I have choked people out, have used standing arm locks, fish hooked one guy and so on. On the other hand, i also am well aware that the situation involved me and one other person and no home-made weapons were involved.
The thing that really sucks about these threads is it starts out a good discussion and ends up a pi$$ing contests which i think is not needed.
Yes, I would see where BJJ, or any JJ would be good in such a environment.
Indeed these contest even stemm from things as ridiculous of posting expereince/styles.
But, I am not going to hit the "ignore feature", because I still value everyone's posts, even if I disagree with some.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
With regards to your posts about gangs and thugs training to fight...
Again, these guys have been represented in early MMA events and even some early Tough Man competitions. I'm not saying that these guys aren't good fighters, don't get me wrong. They are extremely dangerous people, obviously. My point is more to do with the idea that they are just not as well trained as a professional athlete who is training to fight for a living. As a result, in a one on one fight I am going with the professional athlete.
In a cage yes, in a bar brawl may be. Like I've already said allot sport fighters are better technically, and are oftem more athletic then non-sport fighters. But there are other psychological issues that change the game in the street. Which so far I haven't heard anything regarding those the issue is always "who is better skilled" or "who is better trained."
I believe in another thread Triangle hit on the issue of mindsets, which carrys a greater significence then has been given credit to.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
draven i agree when you say the best way to learn to fight is to fight. my tkd instructor would beat the crap out of us, and then have us beat crap out of eachother. i dont agree when you say no one can hang with a ghostrider, or angel or whatever they are. martial artists can be just as dirty. it is stil just a fight. they can still get knocked out or tapped out. i think your over exxgerate their skills. not saying anything about them. they are still human.
You missed my points
1. My point was they train...
2. They have experience, sometimes of allot more serious nature then seen in sport MAs...
3. Going under the assumption that "attacker x" doesn't train because they don't train in a dojo equals "defender y" gettting teeth kicked out or arm busted up because "defender y" assumed incorrectly...
You say can still be tapped out. Right? Where is the tap out when I'm breaking your arm in a street fight, bar brawl or parking lot? There isn't one, which was why Judo, and GJJ used sparring to sink in fundamental concepts. Both can break your arm just as easily as the next depending on the skill of the fighter, but to assume you are the only tiger in the jungle with teeth will get you hurt or killed when the time comes. You actually proved my point because while those people I mentioned fight for survival your talking competition.
To better point to my fact a story that Royce relied about his father while giving a GC demo for the Army. "This wrestler challenged his dad to fight. Helio agreed and they fought, the wrestler lasted some 15 minutes but eventually tapped. Later on one spectator who watched the fight, challenge heilo and he accepted and he choked out the spectator in only seconds. Afterward the spectator came back with a club and Helio broke the guys arm while he was tapping."
This story was all to press the point that in sparring or tournaments there is a tap out but in a real fight there isn't and there isn't a second chance to get things right, the mindset of competition is good but there must also a mindset for war.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
In a cage yes, in a bar brawl may be. Like I've already said allot sport fighters are better technically, and are oftem more athletic then non-sport fighters. But there are other psychological issues that change the game in the street. Which so far I haven't heard anything regarding those the issue is always "who is better skilled" or "who is better trained."
I believe in another thread Triangle hit on the issue of mindsets, which carrys a greater significence then has been given credit to.
I actually do agree with you. A sociopath has a disctint advantage in a fight with a "normal" person. But again, it's very difficult to prepare yourself for that type of a situation and as you are aware turning a "normal" person into someone prepared for combat can cause significant long term psychological harm. So is it worth it to prepare that way for a "what if" situation?
If you are in the military then yes, I guess it is. For someone who has been attacked and their psychological state is damaged as a result of the attack could benefit from this type of training, yes. For everyone else, it's difficult to say.
__________________ Whats so bad about a criminal teaching martial arts?
- Energizerbunny63
The points I've been trying to make are simple but they keep getting ignored, so I'll make them idiot-proof.
1. Martial Artists (usually almost all of them) assume they have the edge because they train...
2. Sport fighters especially assume that training or winning in a sport is a defiant edge...
3. Criminally minded people, especially those already organized prison gangs, street gangs, biker gangs, the mophia, yakuza etc. have some for of training their "enforcers" to better handle themselves in a situation...
4. Allot of people assume that formal training is the only training or that a certificate means something outside of said organization which gave it to you...
5. Basic psychological factors of living in a violent life-style makes a person a) more predisposed to violence and b) allows them less inhabition for using violence...
6. Enviromental conditions, basic human nature and life style make a person more comfortable/adjusted to said life style. An Ivy League college kid with a black belt in GJJ & MT and having a record of 100 wins out of one hundred matches, doesn't mean he will said the approach, set up & attack from an experienced criminal...
7. Most criminals living in a violent sub-culture and involved in criminal activity are a) in great shape, b) are looking for an edge (to include learning Martial Arts) and c) are often intoxicated; that intoxication mixed with a predisitition of violence makes them more violent and unpredictable...
8. Having a competitive mindset, and wanting to challenge yourself is great in the dojo, on the mats or in the cage but depending on your environment (bearing in mind that people around are part of that environment) it CAN AND WILL GET YOU KILLED!!!
9. In a self-defense there is only one thing to train for, the absolute worst case scenario. The worst case scenario; being a strong, fast, skilled, experienced, trained and excessively-violent person who is acustomed to the enviroment he is fighting in. An unskilled attacker is common because they are either a) punk kids trying to get a name or b) just stupid. But, a person who lives in violence, is always looking to have one more thing that gives them an edge...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
The points I've been trying to make are simple but they keep getting ignored, so I'll make them idiot-proof.
1. Martial Artists (usually almost all of them) assume they have the edge because they train...
2. Sport fighters especially assume that training or winning in a sport is a defiant edge...
3. Criminally minded people, especially those already organized prison gangs, street gangs, biker gangs, the mophia, yakuza etc. have some for of training their "enforcers" to better handle themselves in a situation...
4. Allot of people assume that formal training is the only training or that a certificate means something outside of said organization which gave it to you...
5. Basic psychological factors of living in a violent life-style makes a person a) more predisposed to violence and b) allows them less inhabition for using violence...
6. Enviromental conditions, basic human nature and life style make a person more comfortable/adjusted to said life style. An Ivy League college kid with a black belt in GJJ & MT and having a record of 100 wins out of one hundred matches, doesn't mean he will said the approach, set up & attack from an experienced criminal...
7. Most criminals living in a violent sub-culture and involved in criminal activity are a) in great shape, b) are looking for an edge (to include learning Martial Arts) and c) are often intoxicated; that intoxication mixed with a predisitition of violence makes them more violent and unpredictable...
8. Having a competitive mindset, and wanting to challenge yourself is great in the dojo, on the mats or in the cage but depending on your environment (bearing in mind that people around are part of that environment) it CAN AND WILL GET YOU KILLED!!!
9. In a self-defense there is only one thing to train for, the absolute worst case scenario. The worst case scenario; being a strong, fast, skilled, experienced, trained and excessively-violent person who is acustomed to the enviroment he is fighting in. An unskilled attacker is common because they are either a) punk kids trying to get a name or b) just stupid. But, a person who lives in violence, is always looking to have one more thing that gives them an edge...
Well, I wouldnt say its idiot proof........
But I HEAR YA SCREAMING........
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
I actually do agree with you. A sociopath has a disctint advantage in a fight with a "normal" person. But again, it's very difficult to prepare yourself for that type of a situation and as you are aware turning a "normal" person into someone prepared for combat can cause significant long term psychological harm. So is it worth it to prepare that way for a "what if" situation?
Psychopath:Psychopathy is a psychological construct that describes chronic immoral and antisocial behavior.[1] The term is often used interchangeably with sociopathy[2]. Psychopathic personality disorders have been the most studied of any personality disorder. Today the term can legitimately be used in two ways. One is in the legal sense, "psychopathic personality disorder" under the Mental Health Act 1983 of the UK. The other use is as a severe form of the antisocial or dissocial personality disorder as exclusively defined by the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R).[3] The term "psychopathy" is often confused with psychotic disorders. It is estimated that approximately 1% of the general population are psychopaths.
Anti-Social:Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a mental disorder defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: "The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1] Deceit and manipulation are considered essential features of the disorder. Therefore it is essential in making the diagnosis to collect material from sources other than the individual being diagnosed. Also, the individual must be age 18 or older as well as have a documented history of a conduct disorder before the age of 15.[1]
Symptoms of Anti-Social Behavior: Common characteristics of people with antisocial personality disorder include:[citation needed]
Persistent lying or stealing
Recurring difficulties with the law
Tendency to violate the rights and boundaries of others (property, physical, sexual, emotional, legal)
Substance abuse
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
A persistent agitated or depressed feeling (dysphoria)
Inability to tolerate boredom
Disregard for the safety of self or others
A childhood diagnosis of conduct disorders - this is not a symptom but "a history of"
Lack of remorse, related to hurting others
Superficial charm
Impulsiveness
A sense of extreme entitlement
Inability to make or keep friends
Recklessness, impulsivity[4][5]
People with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder often experience difficulties with authority figures.[6]
Now that all the home work is out of the way, this is what you will find in criminals, and criminally minded people. This is what a self-defense instructor is, will or should train for. Notice that most people aren't deranged or mentally ill and anti-social individuals but allmost all criminals are anti-social and unlike a mental illness, anti-social is a personality disorder meaning that it is learned, and can be unlearned in time and with or with medication...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joemoplata
If you are in the military then yes, I guess it is. For someone who has been attacked and their psychological state is damaged as a result of the attack could benefit from this type of training, yes. For everyone else, it's difficult to say.
No, it isn't. There are violent life-styles well outside the military and to not realize that is to make excuses. In the story Helio wasn't in the military he just choked out some idiot, who came back with a weapon. In that case it was a club, it could have been a knife or a gun, the situation was still the same a person pre-disposed to violence acting out with violence above and beyond the normal call for violence.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
No, it isn't. There are violent life-styles well outside the military and to not realize that is to make excuses. In the story Helio wasn't in the military he just choked out some idiot, who came back with a weapon. In that case it was a club, it could have been a knife or a gun, the situation was still the same a person pre-disposed to violence acting out with violence above and beyond the normal call for violence.
Therefore, you are saying that a fight in the street has to have a degree of mental and/or preparation other than winning TKD/MMA matches.....
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
The points I've been trying to make are simple but they keep getting ignored, so I'll make them idiot-proof.
1. Martial Artists (usually almost all of them) assume they have the edge because they train...
2. Sport fighters especially assume that training or winning in a sport is a defiant edge...
3. Criminally minded people, especially those already organized prison gangs, street gangs, biker gangs, the mophia, yakuza etc. have some for of training their "enforcers" to better handle themselves in a situation...
4. Allot of people assume that formal training is the only training or that a certificate means something outside of said organization which gave it to you...
5. Basic psychological factors of living in a violent life-style makes a person a) more predisposed to violence and b) allows them less inhabition for using violence...
6. Enviromental conditions, basic human nature and life style make a person more comfortable/adjusted to said life style. An Ivy League college kid with a black belt in GJJ & MT and having a record of 100 wins out of one hundred matches, doesn't mean he will said the approach, set up & attack from an experienced criminal...
7. Most criminals living in a violent sub-culture and involved in criminal activity are a) in great shape, b) are looking for an edge (to include learning Martial Arts) and c) are often intoxicated; that intoxication mixed with a predisitition of violence makes them more violent and unpredictable...
8. Having a competitive mindset, and wanting to challenge yourself is great in the dojo, on the mats or in the cage but depending on your environment (bearing in mind that people around are part of that environment) it CAN AND WILL GET YOU KILLED!!!
9. In a self-defense there is only one thing to train for, the absolute worst case scenario. The worst case scenario; being a strong, fast, skilled, experienced, trained and excessively-violent person who is acustomed to the enviroment he is fighting in. An unskilled attacker is common because they are either a) punk kids trying to get a name or b) just stupid. But, a person who lives in violence, is always looking to have one more thing that gives them an edge...
So your point is that criminals act....
like criminals?
Seriously Draven, you aren't saying anything other than that really.
__________________ Whats so bad about a criminal teaching martial arts?
- Energizerbunny63
Allot of people assume that formal training is the only training or that a certificate means something outside of said organization which gave it to you...
Enviromental conditions, basic human nature and life style make a person more comfortable/adjusted to said life style. An Ivy League college kid with a black belt in GJJ & MT and having a record of 100 wins out of one hundred matches, doesn't mean he will said the approach, set up & attack from an experienced criminal...
In a self-defense there is only one thing to train for, the absolute worst case scenario. The worst case scenario; being a strong, fast, skilled, experienced, trained and excessively-violent person who is acustomed to the enviroment he is fighting in. An unskilled attacker is common because they are either a) punk kids trying to get a name or b) just stupid. But, a person who lives in violence, is always looking to have one more thing that gives them an edge...
I "somewhat" agree.......
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
You're making me actually start to laugh with you bad use of good knowledge.
First of all, the total amount of actual pyschopaths in any given society is EXTREMELY low (1% is WAY high, not sure where you got that statistic!). Same with Sociopaths and extreme Anti-Social behavioral disorder cases. It's irresponsible to categorize all criminal behavior into these mental disorders and completely inaccurate.
Second of all, if you feel that you need to train for self defense against a psychopathic killer then you go right ahead! I mean, that seems a bit paranoid and kind of weird that you feel you need to do that, but whatever you feel you need to do. I would still be willing to put money down that against any skilled MMA guy you would get your ass kicked.
Third of all based on what you've alread said about yourself on this forum YOU are the one you should be training for! I mean, you are the one with the criminal record for beating up a bunch of basically innocent people! You are the one training for fighing people, how ironic....
Ever hear the saying that people who study psychology are really just trying to understand themselves?
__________________ Whats so bad about a criminal teaching martial arts?
- Energizerbunny63
Ever hear the saying that people who study psychology are really just trying to understand themselves?
I have.
It takes a (insert here) to understand a (insert here)
However, people who study psychology are really just trying to understand other people who dont understand themselves, and have these people understand themselves.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Critics of "sport" martial arts
