Critics of "sport" martial arts

[complete]

Very unfortunate, what happened to Draven.

It seems like this thread is going off topic quite a bit though. Please stay with the main topic or we need to close this one. Thanks.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Very true.

So what then are sport martial arts? Does this include Karate, Sanda and Sumo? Or are we looking for the same old street vs. ring thing?

Here is the absolute truth if I can knock some one out in the ring I can probably knock them out on the street as well. So where is the problem?

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Here is the absolute truth if I can knock some one out in the ring I can probably knock them out on the street as well. So where is the problem?

This seems like a dumbfounded statement.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Very true.

So what then are sport martial arts? Does this include Karate, Sanda and Sumo? Or are we looking for the same old street vs. ring thing?

Here is the absolute truth if I can knock some one out in the ring I can probably knock them out on the street as well. So where is the problem?

With all due respect Triangle, I do think there is some difference between training for the street and training for a sport, any sport. I think you MMA guys come closest to street training because you incorporate full contact into your normal training.

I can only speak from personal experience here. In a full contact match I've gotten nervous before the action starts, but there was no real fear. I knew what to expect and had trained for that. In the street confrontations I have been in I did feel fear. I had little idea of what the other person(s) were gonna do and pretty much figured if I didn't handle it, I was in for a trip to the hospital, at the least. There wasn't any room for error. That has effected my training greatly.

That doesn't mean I think guys who train for a sport are wusses. Most are pretty good athletes with skill and trained reflexes. MMA guys are even more so because of the training you guys do. ( if anyone reading this hasn't tried an MMA work out, you should )That is definitley a plus when it comes to defending yourself. I think the mind set involved between sport training and street fighting are a bit different.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

With all due respect Triangle, I do think there is some difference between training for the street and training for a sport, any sport. I think you MMA guys come closest to street training because you incorporate full contact into your normal training.

I can only speak from personal experience here. In a full contact match I've gotten nervous before the action starts, but there was no real fear. I knew what to expect and had trained for that. In the street confrontations I have been in I did feel fear. I had little idea of what the other person(s) were gonna do and pretty much figured if I didn't handle it, I was in for a trip to the hospital, at the least. There wasn't any room for error. That has effected my training greatly.

That doesn't mean I think guys who train for a sport are wusses. Most are pretty good athletes with skill and trained reflexes. MMA guys are even more so because of the training you guys do. ( if anyone reading this hasn't tried an MMA work out, you should )That is definitley a plus when it comes to defending yourself. I think the mind set involved between sport training and street fighting are a bit different.

No I hear what you're saying and I take no offense at all. And you're right no matter how physical it gets in the ring no one is ever going to pull a knife on me but, my point is your punch better then mine when defending against a knife or a chair or a bottle?

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

No I hear what you're saying and I take no offense at all. And you're right no matter how physical it gets in the ring no one is ever going to pull a knife on me but, my point is your punch better then mine when defending against a knife or a chair or a bottle?

Well call me arrogant, but I think my punches are better than most MMA guys LOL Seriously though, I think a trained martial artist's punch should be powerful, whether trained in sport or street. I think that a person who trains for the street is a little more prepared mentally to adjust to different scenarios that crop up in street fighting. It "should" be part of the training regimen to deal with those different scenarios...and under stressed situations like full contact. I will have to give a caveat to sport fighters though. They are usually better prepared physically.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Well call me arrogant, but I think my punches are better than most MMA guys LOL Seriously though, I think a trained martial artist's punch should be powerful, whether trained in sport or street. I think that a person who trains for the street is a little more prepared mentally to adjust to different scenarios that crop up in street fighting. It "should" be part of the training regimen to deal with those different scenarios...and under stressed situations like full contact. I will have to give a caveat to sport fighters though. They are usually better prepared physically.

I somewhat disagree. Here is my why:

A trained fighter who has trained for competition is going to be better prepared for a street fight than most Martial Artists who train for street fighting because he has prepared himself to face off against another skilled fighter. His training is above and beyond the normal "punch like this, block like this" because he has to be good enough to face someone else who is extremely skilled. When a skilled boxer, wrestler, jiujitsu player, Muay Thai kickboxer faces someone in the street they are getting a marginally skilled person who does not have the knowledge or skills to deal with this.

The fight becomes "easy" for the skilled fighter to dictate how it will go.

My experience with most "street self defense" classes/courses/curriculums is they are TOO broad. There is not enough detail given in any one area to make some HIGHLY skilled. They are just somewhat knowledgeable in every area.

In order to become extremely adept in every area takes a LONG time. Combine that with scenario training, which can be HUNDREDS of scenarios, and you're looking at decades of training to be skilled enough to be at the same level as a fighter who is HIGHLY skilled in just one area.

IMO.

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Well call me arrogant, but I think my punches are better than most MMA guys LOL Seriously though, I think a trained martial artist's punch should be powerful, whether trained in sport or street.

Well, MMA guys are trained martial artists also. Add to the fact that some of these guys are monstrous and I might think that they can get some good raw power behind a punch. Very few of them are pure grappling.

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Very true.

So what then are sport martial arts? Does this include Karate, Sanda and Sumo? Or are we looking for the same old street vs. ring thing?

Here is the absolute truth if I can knock some one out in the ring I can probably knock them out on the street as well. So where is the problem?

If you are simply debating sport vs. real life, I think it is fair to include any sport martial art, if only because it makes it more interesting. I said before about sport TKD and MT being examples of this disparity because TKD is highly restrictive where as MT is pretty much a human cock fight.

So, here is a proposal for an activity for this thread. Take a style you train in, list a few elements of competition, state if they are good or bad habits for self defense.

Tae Kwon Do:
1) No rules encouraging you to keep your hands up - Bad, head is one of the worst places to get hit
2) Disqualification by excessive force - Bad, puts you in the habit of striking lightly and not trying to hurt your opponent
3) 'Point-stop' rule set - Bad, discourages counter attacks and multiple strikes in combination
4) 'Continuous' rule set - Good, rewards well timed counters by preventing the opponent from getting a point in addition to awarding a point to yourself
5) Speed is essential - Good, kicking quickly is a TKDists biggest advantage in a fight
6) Control is essential - Good and bad, good because the athletes get good at striking a small moving target because that means they should be better at striking vital areas in a real fight. Bad because the areas you are allowed to strike are mostly unimportant (except the head)
7) Time limit - Bad, the Seventh Rule of Fight Club is "Fights go on as long as they have to."

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

No I hear what you're saying and I take no offense at all. And you're right no matter how physical it gets in the ring no one is ever going to pull a knife on me but, my point is your punch better then mine when defending against a knife or a chair or a bottle?

Maybe or maybe not. One that trains in defenses against knives may have a more of aadvantage than someone that only trains in sport.

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Well call me arrogant, but I think my punches are better than most MMA guys LOL Seriously though, I think a trained martial artist's punch should be powerful, whether trained in sport or street. I think that a person who trains for the street is a little more prepared mentally to adjust to different scenarios that crop up in street fighting. It "should" be part of the training regimen to deal with those different scenarios...and under stressed situations like full contact. I will have to give a caveat to sport fighters though. They are usually better prepared physically.

Per my above statement.

I have many observations of "martial artsits form just about all styles/methods/categories". The moment of truth will unfold unexpectantly.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I somewhat disagree. Here is my why:

A trained fighter who has trained for competition is going to be better prepared for a street fight than most Martial Artists who train for street fighting because he has prepared himself to face off against another skilled fighter. His training is above and beyond the normal "punch like this, block like this" because he has to be good enough to face someone else who is extremely skilled. When a skilled boxer, wrestler, jiujitsu player, Muay Thai kickboxer faces someone in the street they are getting a marginally skilled person who does not have the knowledge or skills to deal with this.

I somewhat agreee and disgree. Any form of hardcore sport training is a good preparation verses t]point-tag sport training. However, someone that has much training in all aspects of self defense, which it seems you have limited idea of, even the best train person won't always win in everyu situation.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

The fight becomes "easy" for the skilled fighter to dictate how it will go.

Not always easy, but it helps.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

My experience with most "street self defense" classes/courses/curriculums is they are TOO broad. There is not enough detail given in any one area to make some HIGHLY skilled. They are just somewhat knowledgeable in every area.

"Too broad". Depends it the study includes aspects beyond mere phyical applications.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

In order to become extremely adept in every area takes a LONG time. Combine that with scenario training, which can be HUNDREDS of scenarios, and you're looking at decades of training to be skilled enough to be at the same level as a fighter who is HIGHLY skilled in just one area.

But, one area is just a area of one expertise. Without training in so call infinite scenarios, then one limits themselves. Thus setting up for being prepare less. After all, isnt MMA supoose to be about NOT staying in one area of expertise?

Originally Posted by Chapel

Well, MMA guys are trained martial artists also. Add to the fact that some of these guys are monstrous and I might think that they can get some good raw power behind a punch. Very few of them are pure grappling.

Yeah, some of them were already hardcore brawlers. After all, how can one be a MMAst, without being able to throw or take a punch?

Originally Posted by Chapel

If you are simply debating sport vs. real life, I think it is fair to include any sport martial art, if only because it makes it more interesting. I said before about sport TKD and MT being examples of this disparity because TKD is highly restrictive where as MT is pretty much a human cock fight.

Self defense is siutation and environment specific. Sports are "control environments"

[Ben]

Competition is in no way like street fighting, aside from the practical rules suck as No aye gouging or no groin shots, there are also suconsios personal moral codes involved with fighting a fellow martial artist, that undoubtedly vary according to the individual

As my sensei wisely put, 'Its a simple matter, on the street if you attack someones eyes, throat, groin and kneecaps they will not want to play anymore'

You will find in most if not all competitions these things are disallowed, which is why competing to train in self defense, is somewhat a waste of time.

[WC_Lun]

[quote=Chapel;75604]Well, MMA guys are trained martial artists also. Add to the fact that some of these guys are monstrous and I might think that they can get some good raw power behind a punch. Very few of them are pure grappling.



If you are simply debating sport vs. real life, I think it is fair to include any sport martial art, if only because it makes it more interesting. I said before about sport TKD and MT being examples of this disparity because TKD is highly restrictive where as MT is pretty much a human cock fight.

So, here is a proposal for an activity for this thread. Take a style you train in, list a few elements of competition, state if they are good or bad habits for self defense. [quote]




I understand MMA fighters are martial artist. My comment was a joke..mostly. There are some MMA fighters that should learn power doesn't come from the shoulders and constant haymakers leave you open for a lot. Not in the majority.

The Wing Chun school I attend now does not attend tournaments at the moment, though I have lots of tourney experience in my previous training and can give you some answers.

Wing Chun:

1.) Chi Sao with no real forward direct line power - Bad habit. While you may gain some synsetivety with this kind of Chi Sao, you will not know how to create structure to stop straight line power or apply straight line power.

2.) Forms done for look rather than body training - Bad habit. Leads to the hips not being tucked and higher and higher stances, leaving a fighter with an unstable base, litte working knowledge of reference points, and striking with shoulder power.

3.) Point fighting - bad habit. Trains Wing Chun fighters to forget one of the strengths of the style, which is its tenacity once dialed onto a target.

4.) Light/medium contact sparring - bad habit. Part of Wing Chun's strength is its training that inforces hitting with the entire body, including stance, with proper penetraining power. Too many Wing Chun practicioners who train for light/medium contact primarily do not understand how to do this.

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

I understand MMA fighters are martial artist. My comment was a joke..mostly. There are some MMA fighters that should learn power doesn't come from the shoulders and constant haymakers leave you open for a lot. Not in the majority.

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Yeah, some of them were already hardcore brawlers. After all, how can one be a MMAst, without being able to throw or take a punch?

Walking two sides of the line here, so I grouped these quotes. Some MMAists can throw good punches and some can't. I would bet that the majority can and the rest know enough to fake it with some extra muscle.

Self defense is siutation and environment specific. Sports are "control environments"

Although this is true, the controlled environment of a sport is a little more varied than I think you may be giving it credit for. Likewise, there exist many sports which encourage positive behaviors for self defense despite the situational aspect.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Ben

Competition is in no way like street fighting, aside from the practical rules suck as No aye gouging or no groin shots, there are also suconsios personal moral codes involved with fighting a fellow martial artist, that undoubtedly vary according to the individual

As my sensei wisely put, 'Its a simple matter, on the street if you attack someones eyes, throat, groin and kneecaps they will not want to play anymore'

You will find in most if not all competitions these things are disallowed, which is why competing to train in self defense, is somewhat a waste of time.

Ok this is a great example of a TMA mindset. A. Eye strikes, my eyes are very small tagets and as a boxer my head movement changes there location very often making it hard to hit. B. Groin strikes, your wrong if you think I've never been kicked in the groin and, your wrong if you think getting kicked there stopped me. C. Throat again I'm a boxer I always touch chin to chest making it impossible to strike my throat. D. Knee's kicks to the knee do not do what you think they do.

on the sport art thingy do you want me to do MMA in general or just one aspect of it?

Oh and as ussual Joe I agree with everything you said.

[Ben]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Ok this is a great example of a TMA mindset. A. Eye strikes, my eyes are very small tagets and as a boxer my head movement changes there location very often making it hard to hit. B. Groin strikes, your wrong if you think I've never been kicked in the groin and, your wrong if you think getting kicked there stopped me. C. Throat again I'm a boxer I always touch chin to chest making it impossible to strike my throat. D. Knee's kicks to the knee do not do what you think they do.

on the sport art thingy do you want me to do MMA in general or just one aspect of it?

Oh and as ussual Joe I agree with everything you said.

Im talking bout grappling also, unfortunately street fights arent neat, people dont start at a safe distance away from one another and take gaurding stances. Normally its arms length or closer.

Besides the way the face is buitlt If you can get in close enough to make a proper eye strike it doesnt matter if you miss, there the nostrils the mouth, the mastiod process area, temples, several locations on the throat, failing that you can bite them.

Im not saying competition isn't a good way to practice but if your interested in self defense, then theres probably better way to spend your time.

Beides whats the real point in competetion, you gain nothing in the long run except perhapes and inflated or deflated ego.