Critics of "sport" martial arts

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Chapel

Watered down to 'no holds barred' that just seems contradictory?

The term street-fighting comes from the fact that the people who are fighting come from the streets, ghettos, prijects, whatever. Usually high crime areas where violence is a way of life. I have student who is 17 but has been on his own since he was 14, kid has gotten away from petty crime and has a job now. But that was how he survived, the mind set is very different then most people who aren't from "that part of town" think. Violence is a means to an end it is both sercurity and oppertunity. Most of those people aren't violent because of ego but survival instinct and fighting them is often very one sided and very dirty.

NHB isn't like a streetfight, a bar brawl is "low intencity" is comparision. The different min setd between fighting for fun and fighting for ego is nowhere near the mind set of fighting for survival. What allot of guys think is ego, face or pride in the street is just making yourself appear more threatening so other people won't push you. In that comparision, yes; NHB is watered down but point sparring a ballet

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by Draven

The term street-fighting comes from the fact that the people who are fighting come from the streets, ghettos, prijects, whatever. Usually high crime areas where violence is a way of life. I have student who is 17 but has been on his own since he was 14, kid has gotten away from petty crime and has a job now. But that was how he survived, the mind set is very different then most people who aren't from "that part of town" think. Violence is a means to an end it is both sercurity and oppertunity. Most of those people aren't violent because of ego but survival instinct and fighting them is often very one sided and very dirty.

NHB isn't like a streetfight, a bar brawl is "low intencity" is comparision. The different min setd between fighting for fun and fighting for ego is nowhere near the mind set of fighting for survival. What allot of guys think is ego, face or pride in the street is just making yourself appear more threatening so other people won't push you. In that comparision, yes; NHB is watered down but point sparring a ballet

what of street fighter who fight eachother on street for fun or money? is that still considered streetfighting?

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Draven

The term street-fighting comes from the fact that the people who are fighting come from the streets, ghettos, prijects, whatever. Usually high crime areas where violence is a way of life. I have student who is 17 but has been on his own since he was 14, kid has gotten away from petty crime and has a job now. But that was how he survived, the mind set is very different then most people who aren't from "that part of town" think. Violence is a means to an end it is both sercurity and oppertunity. Most of those people aren't violent because of ego but survival instinct and fighting them is often very one sided and very dirty.

NHB isn't like a streetfight, a bar brawl is "low intencity" is comparision. The different min setd between fighting for fun and fighting for ego is nowhere near the mind set of fighting for survival. What allot of guys think is ego, face or pride in the street is just making yourself appear more threatening so other people won't push you. In that comparision, yes; NHB is watered down but point sparring a ballet

Do you have experience in fighting MMA/NHB? If so what organizations?

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

The term street-fighting comes from the fact that the people who are fighting come from the streets, ghettos, prijects, whatever. Usually high crime areas where violence is a way of life. I have student who is 17 but has been on his own since he was 14, kid has gotten away from petty crime and has a job now. But that was how he survived, the mind set is very different then most people who aren't from "that part of town" think. Violence is a means to an end it is both sercurity and oppertunity. Most of those people aren't violent because of ego but survival instinct and fighting them is often very one sided and very dirty.

NHB isn't like a streetfight, a bar brawl is "low intencity" is comparision. The different min setd between fighting for fun and fighting for ego is nowhere near the mind set of fighting for survival. What allot of guys think is ego, face or pride in the street is just making yourself appear more threatening so other people won't push you. In that comparision, yes; NHB is watered down but point sparring a ballet

I somewhat agree. Just "because" one trained for Sport MMA, doesnt mean they can take on a streetfighter of variables/situations.

The one thing to point out is that to be successful over another is to become good in their "element/environment".

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Draven,

Your Hell's Angels guy couldn't last 1 minute against a skilled MMA guy.

There you go making assumptions, go to Charlette NC the Hell's Angels down their have a private gym in the back of one of their club houses, guess what they do? Thats right they train to beat the **** out of people.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I take it you guys never saw when Kimbo Slice fought against the MMA guy from FFA in Florida? Kimbo, with rules that said no ground fighting, lost the fight due to verbal tapout.

Kimbo is not a street-fighter, as explained in another post the term street-fighting comes from the fight that the people who were fighting came from the "Streets" ghettos and such. Fairborn referd to this as gutter fighting

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Sure, now that he's had 3 to 4 years of good MMA training he's going to be a force to reckon with but even your BEST street fighter stood no chance one on one with a trained MMA guy.

Right because people who like to hurt people don't train/practice hurting people.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

And a gang of thugs? Your argument is that my BJJ skills can't help me against a gang of thugs/Hells Angel gang?

I KNOW THAT!

I also know NOTHING can save me in that situation. And to tell anyone that you know how to save them in that situation with anything other than running your ass off is irresponsible on your part.

Wrong my srguement if you read it, was that these guys a) train to fight b) fight with allot less rules then you do & c) really don't care about anything but winning. It is a vastly different mindset then in MMA. I'm saying you, nor I nor anyone else is going to win against a an individual who is trained in fighting, experinced in fighting dirty and has allot higher pain tolence/fear tolerance because they've already been shot, stabbed and beaten to death/near death.

Oh and by the way, I've been jumped two and three on one. Running only helps if you can a) run faster and b) run longer. And if the attacker has a weapon running will get you killed, never turn your back on anyone in a fight.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

And just stop saying eye gouging, throat strike people because we've already discounted those points. You have to come up with something better.

Anyone have any stories/video tape/eye witness accounts of a trained MMA guy losing a street fight to someone without formal training?

Yes plenty, go down to Charlette NC and pick a fight with one the groups I already mentioned, or better yet come up here to WV and I'll take you to a couple of club houses and yes these guys do train. It ain't TMA, and sure ain't MMA but its still pretty interesting.

My buddy Kenneth, taught his wife "self-defense" he learned "karate" when he was member of the Ghost Riders; a local biker club. He taught her the same way he learned, here are the techniques practice them and beat the living crap out of her for "sparring." When she left him, because he was abusive she got with this idiot who would get drunk and beat her. Amazingly enough she ended up beating the "new guy" down. Why?

Because she learned to fight by fighting and was used to being hit, kicked, and choked out. You define formal training as what is taught in a dojo or gym, but what about all the guys who know a martial art and teach their kids without "formal reconition" of that training? Oh yeah, no paper no knowledge no trophies no skill huh... What a sport-karate person who does exibition kata considers formal training and what you consioder formal training for going out doing MMA are vastly different right? So why is so hard to believe people who train in less orxidox methods aren't formal?

I'll give you my answer, because you have that same stupid attitude as a TMA person. What I am doing is the best for whatever reason, because I train, I have awards, I did this, I know this and in the end what you know only matter when it keeps you alive. Otherwise all that training, formal or informal is worthless unless it keeps you alive...

[Draven]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Not really there is only the mind set that there is something more to it. A greater reality of danger is enforced as way to keep traditionalist schools a float. The UFC IMO did one very good thing it tore down the walls of mysticism surounding martial arts. To say simply that a sport art doesn't prepare you for a street fight because you don't bite peoples junk or whatever is just ridiculous, again IMO.

Huh... what mysticism, I gave my basic assment of needed skills for street survival and I'll repost them...
"Ok, I consider myself a self-defense minded instructor. So I'll tell you what here is what I find important in the areas of study and you can tell which you think aren't.
1- Laymen Psychology
2- Basic Sociology (Based on awareness & human interaction)
3- Fighting Techniques (stand up striking, stand up grappling, throws, takedowns, disarms and groundfighting)
4- Fundamental Weapons (sticks, knives, chains & thrown weapons)
5- Improvised Weapons
6- Escape & Evasion
7- First Aid
8- Basic Survival Skills"

There is a getter sense of endanger in a real fight, like I said most Street-fights I've seen involved weapons. Now I will and have admitted most MMA gusy are better trained, technically superior and a whole lot more athletic them most TMA guys. But there are other factors besides techniques and fighting ability out there.

The best option is to avoid the fight altogether, running away is not always possible or a good idea, and sometimes you can't win. When your fighting yes the techniques and so are important, but there are factors beyond simply fighting. Part opf this being able to see the set-up before the approach and the attack.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by SirokiFighter

what of street fighter who fight eachother on street for fun or money? is that still considered streetfighting?

Depends, everyone has a different definition of street-fighting. There was a group of people back here who had their own "street fighting tournaments" but they had rules. So it basically depends on how you want to define it, in some place I been to in Ireland, Okinawa, Japan, Korea and Austia they called unsactioned boxing/MA tournaments street-fights. So it depends on where and who I'd say. Why not?

[Draven]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Do you have experience in fighting MMA/NHB? If so what organizations?

I did some stuff in the Army but it was straight GC/GJJ, other then that in full-contact karate (JKA & USKA) never been in an MMA event. I'm crossing-training some guys for one now but its local I think.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Draven

Huh... what mysticism, I gave my basic assment of needed skills for street survival and I'll repost them...
"Ok, I consider myself a self-defense minded instructor. So I'll tell you what here is what I find important in the areas of study and you can tell which you think aren't.
1- Laymen Psychology
2- Basic Sociology (Based on awareness & human interaction)
3- Fighting Techniques (stand up striking, stand up grappling, throws, takedowns, disarms and groundfighting)
4- Fundamental Weapons (sticks, knives, chains & thrown weapons)
5- Improvised Weapons
6- Escape & Evasion
7- First Aid
8- Basic Survival Skills"

There is a getter sense of endanger in a real fight, like I said most Street-fights I've seen involved weapons. Now I will and have admitted most MMA gusy are better trained, technically superior and a whole lot more athletic them most TMA guys. But there are other factors besides techniques and fighting ability out there.

The best option is to avoid the fight altogether, running away is not always possible or a good idea, and sometimes you can't win. When your fighting yes the techniques and so are important, but there are factors beyond simply fighting. Part opf this being able to see the set-up before the approach and the attack.

I wasn't referring to your post. A separate observation.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

Depends, everyone has a different definition of street-fighting. There was a group of people back here who had their own "street fighting tournaments" but they had rules. So it basically depends on how you want to define it, in some place I been to in Ireland, Okinawa, Japan, Korea and Austia they called unsactioned boxing/MA tournaments street-fights. So it depends on where and who I'd say. Why not?

Indeed, I think it was mentioned it depended on the area/environment, and the mentality.

Street fighting, even fighting, per general, has many variables/situations not govern by any types of rules of engagement. There are more aspects in street fighting than just trying to beat up someone, or the physical applications.

Thus, I seen martial artists from just about all styles, including BJJ/Sport MMA, fall in a street confrontation (a more appropriate term - IMHO)

[47MartialMan]

Do you have experience in fighting MMA/NHB? If so what organizations?

Originally Posted by Draven

I did some stuff in the Army but it was straight GC/GJJ, other then that in full-contact karate (JKA & USKA) never been in an MMA event. I'm crossing-training some guys for one now but its local I think.

Careful, unless you had expereinced Sport MMA, you can't be a MMA, oops, "Sport" MMA.

Cross training is MMA, but not neccessarily "Sport MMA".

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Draven

I did some stuff in the Army but it was straight GC/GJJ, other then that in full-contact karate (JKA & USKA) never been in an MMA event. I'm crossing-training some guys for one now but its local I think.

Thats cool, it's pretty nerve racking too. It may not be life or death but, there is a very real sense of danger. Like, whats the worse that can happen oh I could break my neck and die. While that is a rare thing and you probably are more likely to die in the street then in the ring, it is still a very relevant concern in sport fighting.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Thats cool, it's pretty nerve racking too. It may not be life or death but, there is a very real sense of danger. Like, whats the worse that can happen oh I could break my neck and die. While that is a rare thing and you probably are more likely to die in the street then in the ring, it is still a very relevant concern in sport fighting.

I got my belt in karate from the USKA but when I was station in Okinawa we had a JKA dojo on post and they carried over the shodan. Fortunity for me my old shotokan instructor was hardcore old school shotokan, so he taught the grappling stuff and used the old rules of awarding points for throws, takedowns and pins cause the JKA Instructor let us use them while sparring. It wasn't like you could go to the ground MMA style but you could pin or takedown with a armbar. Its a big difference compared to the striking only sparring the shotokan people do. I feel like a dinosaur around some of those guys...

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

I got my belt in karate from the USKA but when I was station in Okinawa we had a JKA dojo on post and they carried over the shodan. Fortunity for me my old shotokan instructor was hardcore old school shotokan, so he taught the grappling stuff and used the old rules of awarding points for throws, takedowns and pins cause the JKA Instructor let us use them while sparring. It wasn't like you could go to the ground MMA style but you could pin or takedown with a armbar. Its a big difference compared to the striking only sparring the shotokan people do. I feel like a dinosaur around some of those guys...

Indeed many hardcore/old school TMAst/instructors did grappling, takedowns, armbars, and submissions.

Many even done the "scissors".

So I guess they practiced wrestling too.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Draven

I got my belt in karate from the USKA but when I was station in Okinawa we had a JKA dojo on post and they carried over the shodan. Fortunity for me my old shotokan instructor was hardcore old school shotokan, so he taught the grappling stuff and used the old rules of awarding points for throws, takedowns and pins cause the JKA Instructor let us use them while sparring. It wasn't like you could go to the ground MMA style but you could pin or takedown with a armbar. Its a big difference compared to the striking only sparring the shotokan people do. I feel like a dinosaur around some of those guys...

So most of your submissions i.e. arm bar started from a standing position? Did you find a high level of success with those techniques?