Critics of "sport" martial arts

[Draven]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

So most of your submissions i.e. arm bar started from a standing position? Did you find a high level of success with those techniques?

Depends on what you're doing. Most of the standup armbars are intended to break the arm (elbow) and I've used a couple to that effect. Most are similar to judo stand armbars some similar to aikido. We had the basics the arm entrapped holds, inside/outside wristlocks, cross armbar, hammer-lock, over the top armbar, hip throw, sweeping/reaping throws, scissor throw/takedown, and there were a few others. There was actually a double leg throw/takedown similar to traditional jujitsu same technique.

In some cases, I got some good points in from throws, the wheel throw and the scissor leg takedown especially. I had a couple wins off the cross armbar takedown, mostly I just punched hard Wasn't an issue with submissions it was mostly ten second hold downs and throws that left people pretty much stunned for a few seconds.

[Draven]

The full rules for the JKA are listed here, but this a quote to what I was refering. Note these rules are for point sparring only, not contact karate. So they probly get real weak as you read on.

"4. In following cases, a full point can be scored, even if not all criteria mentioned
above are accomplished.
(1) “Deai”: attacking the opponent after he/she starts his/her attack and still be faster
(2) Breaking the opponent’s posture
(3) Attack combined with a throw
(4) Continuous techniques that all reach their aim
(5) The opponent is defenseless."

Pins left the other guy defenseless, breaking the posture depending on the judges some make you go for the pin others you just had to apply the locks effectively while standing, and some was just bringing your opponent to the ground. Any time you threw someone and finished with a strike you got a point. and of course a KO counted as leaving them defenseless. Some instructors are pretty specific on what qulaifies for what and some let you get away with allot by very loose interpetation of the rules...

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Draven

The full rules for the JKA are listed here, but this a quote to what I was refering. Note these rules are for point sparring only, not contact karate. So they probly get real weak as you read on.

"4. In following cases, a full point can be scored, even if not all criteria mentioned
above are accomplished.
(1) “Deai”: attacking the opponent after he/she starts his/her attack and still be faster
(2) Breaking the opponent’s posture
(3) Attack combined with a throw
(4) Continuous techniques that all reach their aim
(5) The opponent is defenseless."

Pins left the other guy defenseless, breaking the posture depending on the judges some make you go for the pin others you just had to apply the locks effectively while standing, and some was just bringing your opponent to the ground. Any time you threw someone and finished with a strike you got a point. and of course a KO counted as leaving them defenseless. Some instructors are pretty specific on what qulaifies for what and some let you get away with allot by very loose interpetation of the rules...

Interesting post.

[Joemoplata]

Draven,

Sorry to come in so late...

With regards to your posts about gangs and thugs training to fight...

Again, these guys have been represented in early MMA events and even some early Tough Man competitions. I'm not saying that these guys aren't good fighters, don't get me wrong. They are extremely dangerous people, obviously. My point is more to do with the idea that they are just not as well trained as a professional athlete who is training to fight for a living. As a result, in a one on one fight I am going with the professional athlete.

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Draven,

Sorry to come in so late...

With regards to your posts about gangs and thugs training to fight...

Again, these guys have been represented in early MMA events and even some early Tough Man competitions. I'm not saying that these guys aren't good fighters, don't get me wrong. They are extremely dangerous people, obviously. My point is more to do with the idea that they are just not as well trained as a professional athlete who is training to fight for a living. As a result, in a one on one fight I am going with the professional athlete.

i agree with you.

[SirokiFighter]

draven i agree when you say the best way to learn to fight is to fight. my tkd instructor would beat the crap out of us, and then have us beat crap out of eachother. i dont agree when you say no one can hang with a ghostrider, or angel or whatever they are. martial artists can be just as dirty. it is stil just a fight. they can still get knocked out or tapped out. i think your over exxgerate their skills. not saying anything about them. they are still human.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Joe's point is pretty much dead on not only due to the fact that the technique is going to be so much cleaner, in fact lets throw that out the window for now. Lets say that these gang bangers or whatever are training. There is now way they are going to have the conditioning of a professional athlete. Thus if they don't win in the first minuet they're done. Anybody can get sucker punched a pro fighter a master Jedi or whatever, the guy throwing the sucker punch does not all of the sudden become Bruce Lee.

And even if they are training who's teaching them? The organizations you had mentioned previously had all been smaller biker gang and so on types of things. These affiliations don't really exist in major metropolitan areas. I'm sure to some small degree they do and they have meetings in somebody's basement and what not but, they just don't have an impact here. The gangs we have LK, Black Stone, GD, Crip, Blood, Blood Stone, and so on are more likely to just study Gun Fu.

I'm sorry I here biker gang and Arayian Nation and I just laugh because those guys wouldn't last a week out here.

Two words Chi Town, south side, world wide, cause I rep that, till I f'n die Feeling thuggy today.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Thats cool, it's pretty nerve racking too. It may not be life or death but, there is a very real sense of danger. Like, whats the worse that can happen oh I could break my neck and die. While that is a rare thing and you probably are more likely to die in the street then in the ring, it is still a very relevant concern in sport fighting.

Indeed. I may tend to think the result of injuries would be at a greater percentage in sport than the street.

Though these may have some differences in severity.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Joe's point is pretty much dead on not only due to the fact that the technique is going to be so much cleaner, in fact lets throw that out the window for now. Lets say that these gang bangers or whatever are training. There is now way they are going to have the conditioning of a professional athlete. Thus if they don't win in the first minuet they're done. Anybody can get sucker punched a pro fighter a master Jedi or whatever, the guy throwing the sucker punch does not all of the sudden become Bruce Lee.

And even if they are training who's teaching them? The organizations you had mentioned previously had all been smaller biker gang and so on types of things. These affiliations don't really exist in major metropolitan areas. I'm sure to some small degree they do and they have meetings in somebody's basement and what not but, they just don't have an impact here. The gangs we have LK, Black Stone, GD, Crip, Blood, Blood Stone, and so on are more likely to just study Gun Fu.

I'm sorry I here biker gang and Arayian Nation and I just laugh because those guys wouldn't last a week out here.

Two words Chi Town, south side, world wide, cause I rep that, till I f'n die Feeling thuggy today.

Yeah, when seeing/reading/hearng about how bad biker gangs are, and how dirty they fight, we forgeting a few factors;

A.) They are usually in the gang/ supported by the gang

B.) Not all are obese, out of shape people without any type of training. Some are in great shape and strong.

C.) And when they start to lose, they pull out weapons to settle the dispute

D.) To state that one had fought a biker, doesnt mean that they (not the biker) are tough. Bikers are people. People win and they loose.

E.) In any confrontation be it biker or betty, under no rules, one isn't going to be paired within their own weight class and skill level. And over-confidence can be a awful eye-opener (or closer)

[The End]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Yeah, when seeing/reading/hearng about how bad biker gangs are, and how dirty they fight, we forgeting a few factors;

A.) They are usually in the gang/ supported by the gang

B.) Not all are obese, out of shape people without any type of training. Some are in great shape and strong.

C.) And when they start to lose, they pull out weapons to settle the dispute

D.) To state that one had fought a biker, doesnt mean that they (not the biker) are tough. Bikers are people. People win and they loose.

E.) In any confrontation be it biker or betty, under no rules, one isn't going to be paired within their own weight class and skill level. And over-confidence can be a awful eye-opener (or closer)

I have to agree with the above.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by The End

I have to agree with the above.

I can't sit here and argue about how tough/dirty/bad ass gangs are as a logical argument concerning self defense. It's pointless. It's like saying that you MIGHT end up having to defend yourself against a Navy Seal.

It's a low percentage problem that I guess I will have to deal with if and when it happens. But I am NOT going to train my self defense methodologies around something as stupid as "What if you have to face a biker gang in a biker bar?"

That's just ridiculous.

[The End]

I think he mentioned bikers because someone earlier had mentioned them. Of course, for me, I stay out of rough bars anymore. However, one never knows who you may end up dealing with. I think the point he was making was sometimes people over simplify things concerning bikers, skinheads, Crips, etc. he makes some good points. They rarely fight one on one, often use weapons, and not all of them are out of shape push-overs. What's ridiculous about that?

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Are there still biker gangs?

[The End]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Are there still biker gangs?

Um, yeah. Unfortunately.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I can't sit here and argue about how tough/dirty/bad ass gangs are as a logical argument concerning self defense. It's pointless. It's like saying that you MIGHT end up having to defend yourself against a Navy Seal.

It's a low percentage problem that I guess I will have to deal with if and when it happens. But I am NOT going to train my self defense methodologies around something as stupid as "What if you have to face a biker gang in a biker bar?"

That's just ridiculous.

I somewhat agree. Training to fight a "biker", would be like training to fight against a baby-faced teenager with a gun.

Though self defense training should be about variables, it shouldn't go beyond tangible situations of one's own activities/environment.