Concept & Context why the US Army went to BJJ...

[Draven]

Allot of people may agree or disagree with what I'm saying. I don't care which cause well, I have a bit of insider knoweldge on these things being a former combatives instructor.

The technical skills of BJJ existed before BJJ and several different arts, systems, kingdoms, countries and peoples. The differences are subtile and so is the difference between BJJ and it's immideiate forerunner Japanese Police Judo which placed a much heavier focus on ne-waza (ground fighting techniques) then say traditional Kodokan Judo.

Traditionally a soldier would kill his enemy and move one, in a hand to hand situation this was done by focusing hand-to-hand combatives on "kill shots" or blows that would result in disableing and killing an enemy soldier in combat. This is easily seen in the work of Rex Applegate and various other military hand-to-hand combatives pioneers. Many of these techniques included grabbing, crushing and holding closed the trachea to sufficate an enemy soldier, striking the carodid artery to stun and follow up with various technques and even a simple technique of grabbing the ears or uniform of an enemy soldier and stomping the knee while standing to cripple an enemy.

But, wars have changed...

Now the focus is on information, so that the infantry soldier whose job was to close with and kill the enemy in combat has become to close with and kill the enemy and take as many prisoners as possible. For this the modern military have switch focus, in the basic elvolution of LINE training & adavnced forms of the modern Marine Corp Martial Arts Program, the goal was simplistic. Kill the enemy, grappling techniques where used to destory a joint, tear tendons and so on. This of course would allow grappling the destoried limb to cause a sensory overload and disorientate the enemy combatant, allowing the classical "kill shots" to be employed.

But, the basic applications of Army Combatives and the US Army Martial Arts Program has taken the same step. That being this;
"Soldiers must be prepared to use different levels of force in an environment where
conflict may change from low intensity to high intensity over a matter of hours. Many
military operations, such as peacekeeping missions or noncombatant evacuation, may
restrict the use of deadly weapons. Hand-to-hand combatives training will save lives
when an unexpected confrontation occurs."
- From 1-2 Purposes of Combatives Training, US Army Combative Manual FM 3-25.150 (FM 21-150)

Low intensity and high intensity have a simple meaning, non-lethal and lethal. Low intensity is mission where one is acting as a peace keeper, an prisoner escort or guard or some similar task where you are not intending to kill the other person. A high intencity mission is amission to kill the enemy in battle, often times the first option or tool of this job is the soldier's rifle. To begin with a soldier is basically trained in control and non-lethal techniques at a hand-to-hand level.

For this reason the U.S. Army uses BJJ as a basic foundation for hand-to-hand combatives/military martial arts programs. These techniques are taught to restrain and enemy combatant and this is widely different then killing the enemy on a battle field. The US Army way of thinking a soldier can be prepared for lethal and none-lethal work by giving them close combat restraining techniques on an interpersonal combat level and by teaching them to shoot their weapons at the enemy.

The arguement that BJJ is great because it is used by the US Army Martial Arts program is lost if not taken within the context of why it is there. The reason is in part because of how effective the system was during the UFCs, the Gracies who submitted or choked out all opponents did so without causing permanet injury. But this is a far cry from the Fairborn and Applegate methods of quick, dirty and lethal, though with a simplistic change of a common armbar from BJJ (much the same as in judo) the goal can change from submit to destory the joint and then twist it around to cause sensory overload.

The issue is never the how buy the why, changing the context of how a art is used can ultimately change the concept of how it works...

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Draven is such a man he goes to the bar and orders a land mine to drink

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Draven is such a man he goes to the bar and orders a land mine to drink

Be careful TRIANGLE, you're talkin about a hardened biker-killer-felon-soldier-ninja-combat expect.

But a TERRIBLE speller.

[47MartialMan]

Nice post Draven.

Posts are worth what they are from the conviction of the author.

I can disagree with some, but welcome all.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Nice post Draven.

Posts are worth what they are from the conviction of the author.

I can disagree with some, but welcome all.

Thanks for that wonderful insight into the topic 47MM. With excellent postings such as this one I'm sure you will continue your streak of #1 poster.



Draven, the American Army readily adopts martial arts of various kinds into it's curriculum. It did this with Judo and Karate as well. Their grappling programs are decent and I have personally gone against the West Point Submission Grappling team competitors in Sub Grappling tournaments. But they will glom onto the next big thing in another 10 years or so anyway.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Thanks for that wonderful insight into the topic 47MM. With excellent postings such as this one I'm sure you will continue your streak of #1 poster.



Draven, the American Army readily adopts martial arts of various kinds into it's curriculum. It did this with Judo and Karate as well. Their grappling programs are decent and I have personally gone against the West Point Submission Grappling team competitors in Sub Grappling tournaments. But they will glom onto the next big thing in another 10 years or so anyway.

Were you in the "Army/Military"?

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Were you in the "Army/Military"?

I am a product of an Army family, my father was in the Army 24 years.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I am a product of an Army family, my father was in the Army 24 years.

Me too, though my father wasn't in the army but for 8.

Mine was "somewhat force" to serve the first go round.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Draven, the American Army readily adopts martial arts of various kinds into it's curriculum. It did this with Judo and Karate as well. Their grappling programs are decent and I have personally gone against the West Point Submission Grappling team competitors in Sub Grappling tournaments. But they will glom onto the next big thing in another 10 years or so anyway.

Perhaps, but the context of what they are doing is vastly more important then the systems used to get their. The U.S. Army Combatives programs were formally focused on boxing more then grappling & USMC's LINE Training (jujitsu to a cadence) was derived from judo, karate and traditional samurai jujutsu. All previous systems were intented to kill and enemy soldier (LINE especially), the modern face of warfare; peace keeping missions, so called "low intensity conflicts" and so on has turned soldiers into "UN Police Officers."

As for West Point, West Point isn't the service it's a primer school for officers. A cadet at west point is groomed to be an officer and even though they do spend time with active military units they often get better training then those units in the field, as far as academics go anyway. As for what they told when going through the US Army Combatives Instructor course BJJ was picked over top of judo and JJJ because of the reasons I stated. They found judo & BJJ equal on techniques but BJJ superior in principles of position and control. The basic Hand-to-hand at Fort Benning consists of very basic BJJ and boxing, the kali, and other systems that are included in the US Army hand-to-hand system are rarely taught to common infantry soldiers and is more common to Ranger Bat. and SOC units.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

Perhaps, but the context of what they are doing is vastly more important then the systems used to get their. The U.S. Army Combatives programs were formally focused on boxing more then grappling & USMC's LINE Training (jujitsu to a cadence) was derived from judo, karate and traditional samurai jujutsu. All previous systems were intented to kill and enemy soldier (LINE especially), the modern face of warfare; peace keeping missions, so called "low intensity conflicts" and so on has turned soldiers into "UN Police Officers."

As for West Point, West Point isn't the service it's a primer school for officers. A cadet at west point is groomed to be an officer and even though they do spend time with active military units they often get better training then those units in the field, as far as academics go anyway. As for what they told when going through the US Army Combatives Instructor course BJJ was picked over top of judo and JJJ because of the reasons I stated. They found judo & BJJ equal on techniques but BJJ superior in principles of position and control. The basic Hand-to-hand at Fort Benning consists of very basic BJJ and boxing, the kali, and other systems that are included in the US Army hand-to-hand system are rarely taught to common infantry soldiers and is more common to Ranger Bat. and SOC units.

Yeah, many "officers" cant fight their way out of a paper bag.....

[Draven]

My old Lt. Greg Plitt got out the Army and does Bowflex Commercials lol... The H2H was worthless against him, he was too damn big and too damn strong. We actually saw him push a 2 and half ton truck up a hill. It took a while but still we nicknamed him the Hulk lol... Great guy he prefered to hang with us enlisted grunts then most officers.

[complete]

He sounds like a pretty cool dude. Which model on Bowflex? I've seen a bunch of them.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

My old Lt. Greg Plitt got out the Army and does Bowflex Commercials lol... The H2H was worthless against him, he was too damn big and too damn strong. We actually saw him push a 2 and half ton truck up a hill. It took a while but still we nicknamed him the Hulk lol... Great guy he prefered to hang with us enlisted grunts then most officers.

Thats cool, do you have a pic of him?

[Draven]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Thats cool, do you have a pic of him?

Not anymore, all my Arnmy pics are in storage but here is a Met-RX vid he did... Guy is allot bigger in person.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by complete

He sounds like a pretty cool dude. Which model on Bowflex? I've seen a bunch of them.

The latest he is the guy who says "they made it size small there so can be a size large here."