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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
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The more information I see and read about Ashida Kim, the more I see what a fraud he his. Draven, you say he has some good things to teach, but how would you find them from the tons of deception he has already perpetiated? There should be a high level of trust between a teacher and a student. Without it, the relationship is doomed. How can you really trust a man that has shown so many lapses in judgement?
Ashida Kim is just another blemish on the martial arts world, no different then the so called kia masters that have been knocked out by regular people. He is a profiteer and should be disregarded. My gas contains more useful martial knowledge then Ashida Kim's books.
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The more information I see and read about Ashida Kim, the more I see what a fraud he his. Draven, you say he has some good things to teach, but how would you find them from the tons of deception he has already perpetiated? There should be a high level of trust between a teacher and a student. Without it, the relationship is doomed. How can you really trust a man that has shown so many lapses in judgement?
Well I gave you two opposing views, both are essentually bias one quotes from ashida's material and another explaining a hypothetical situation were Ashida Kim gave a certificate in Vale Tudo. Yet, there is much which exists outside those articles. The one condemning Ashida Kim seem focused on the belief that Hatsumi is legitimate; yet in Japan when he first began teaching publicly he was condemned as a fraud and have even admitted in writing that no "desho" (scrolls) exist from his "ninja lineage." So the question must be ask about the aggendas of those who wrote the articles.
First I doubt the Bullshido article because one they are an MMA site, which condemns anything not MMA. We can argue the pro & cons of any martial art or MMA but if such a certificate did exist why is it not shown with the article to support the claims. Second, the second article does quote from Ashida Kim's work even though it was written by a supposed friend of Ashida Kim. So there are levels of bias in that as well. It atleast the artcile allows you to a) refference any claims make in the artcle b) opennly bias to the point the artcile is admittedly written by a friend of Ashida Kims and c) uses exact quotes from Ashida Kim's work to show what he as said in an undeniable format (already published books).
Seeing as how the ninjutsu market has been filled with false claims from members of the Bujinkan, Jinjenkan and Genbukan as well as issues with lineage (none are proven) any artcle establishing that Bujin or Hatsumi as authentic is completely fraudulant. As proof I'll quote Hatsumi from Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu page 115 "As a decree of the previous masters of this school, that bound by pen and paper is forbidden." No such scrolls exist to prove a ninjutsu lineage.
Even Don Draeger (sp?) when he first researched ninjutsu said it was an otherwise secretive art form, the last known Practicer was Seiko Fujita (who offered no proof) but was responsible for training spies and commandos are the Nakino Espionage School during WW2.
As such any artcle that seeks to prove Ashida Kim a fraud but Hatsumi as legitimate is basically self-full filling prophecy of sorts. I'd be more interested in hearing what an actual researcher might say who did not have a interest in distorting the facts thereof.
Before you can descide which artcle is correct, you must examine the methods, claim and evidence presented for both. Only the article supporting Ashida Kim lists such references, but it is opennly biased. So which is correct or more properly which is varifiable and has the least to gain from such an article?
As for what I've learned from Ashida Kim, he opennly combines different elements to his ninjitsu system and draws from several different martial arts. He is goal is in seeking the most well rounded but simplistic of systems. Allot of what Ashida Kim does is smoke & mirrors but then so is every on the planet, at with Ashida Kim its obviously so.
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Ashida Kim is just another blemish on the martial arts world, no different then the so called kia masters that have been knocked out by regular people. He is a profiteer and should be disregarded. My gas contains more useful martial knowledge then Ashida Kim's books.
Sadly, Tri I'd say your gas contains more knowledge then most MA books I've read lol...
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,974
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Well I gave you two opposing views, both are essentually bias one quotes from ashida's material and another explaining a hypothetical situation were Ashida Kim gave a certificate in Vale Tudo. Yet, there is much which exists outside those articles. The one condemning Ashida Kim seem focused on the belief that Hatsumi is legitimate; yet in Japan when he first began teaching publicly he was condemned as a fraud and have even admitted in writing that no "desho" (scrolls) exist from his "ninja lineage." So the question must be ask about the aggendas of those who wrote the articles.
First I doubt the Bullshido article because one they are an MMA site, which condemns anything not MMA. We can argue the pro & cons of any martial art or MMA but if such a certificate did exist why is it not shown with the article to support the claims. Second, the second article does quote from Ashida Kim's work even though it was written by a supposed friend of Ashida Kim. So there are levels of bias in that as well. It atleast the artcile allows you to a) refference any claims make in the artcle b) opennly bias to the point the artcile is admittedly written by a friend of Ashida Kims and c) uses exact quotes from Ashida Kim's work to show what he as said in an undeniable format (already published books).
Seeing as how the ninjutsu market has been filled with false claims from members of the Bujinkan, Jinjenkan and Genbukan as well as issues with lineage (none are proven) any artcle establishing that Bujin or Hatsumi as authentic is completely fraudulant. As proof I'll quote Hatsumi from Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu page 115 "As a decree of the previous masters of this school, that bound by pen and paper is forbidden." No such scrolls exist to prove a ninjutsu lineage.
Even Don Draeger (sp?) when he first researched ninjutsu said it was an otherwise secretive art form, the last known Practicer was Seiko Fujita (who offered no proof) but was responsible for training spies and commandos are the Nakino Espionage School during WW2.
As such any artcle that seeks to prove Ashida Kim a fraud but Hatsumi as legitimate is basically self-full filling prophecy of sorts. I'd be more interested in hearing what an actual researcher might say who did not have a interest in distorting the facts thereof.
Before you can descide which artcle is correct, you must examine the methods, claim and evidence presented for both. Only the article supporting Ashida Kim lists such references, but it is opennly biased. So which is correct or more properly which is varifiable and has the least to gain from such an article?
As for what I've learned from Ashida Kim, he opennly combines different elements to his ninjitsu system and draws from several different martial arts. He is goal is in seeking the most well rounded but simplistic of systems. Allot of what Ashida Kim does is smoke & mirrors but then so is every on the planet, at with Ashida Kim its obviously so.
What I'm getting from this post is that because others in ninpo or ninjitsu are frauds that it excuses Ashida Kim from being one...? Doesn't make much sense to me. You have said you know Mr Kim and I can appreciate your loyalty to someone you know. However, there are way too many fakes and frauds in the martial arts world to support another, in my opinion.
What I'm getting from this post is that because others in ninpo or ninjitsu are frauds that it excuses Ashida Kim from being one...? Doesn't make much sense to me. You have said you know Mr Kim and I can appreciate your loyalty to someone you know. However, there are way too many fakes and frauds in the martial arts world to support another, in my opinion.
But, see thats were the issues arise;
How can Ashida Kim be fake because he doesn't use his correct name?
Ashida Kimpatsu has two legal names; the "Kim" part was shortened because during his time in the US Army many people couldn't properly pronouce Kimpatsu so they just refered to it as "Kim." More so, Ashida Kimpatsu has two legal names; his father was American but his mother was Japanese. When he was born in a Japanese hospital off post he was given a Japanese birth certificate but when his parents brought him on post and gave him an American birth certificate that had an American name on it.
My point was not that Ashida Kim was a fraud or that others were, but simply that he is an easy target for using a psuedonym and not giving into every demand for proof. My point was that much like snitches, to prove their legitimacy a great deal of less morally upstanding people will label others frauds. All to deny themselves as being frauds as well.
The point is, much of the martial arts is a business populated by fakes, frauds, liars and otherwise plain ignorant people. All of them are trying to disprove their fraudulant claims or opinions by labelling others as frauds. I give any martial art a fair bit of respect on a technical level but don't suscribe to the BS they claim as absolutes.
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
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"Seeing as how the ninjutsu market has been filled with false claims from members of the Bujinkan, Jinjenkan and Genbukan as well as issues with lineage (none are proven) any artcle establishing that Bujin or Hatsumi as authentic is completely fraudulant. As proof I'll quote Hatsumi from Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu page 115 "As a decree of the previous masters of this school, that bound by pen and paper is forbidden." No such scrolls exist to prove a ninjutsu lineage."
this qoute seems to be taken out of context. there are people from Bujinkan, Jinenkan, and Genbukan
who carry the names of these Schools. but they are not really doing / practicing Bujinkan, Jinenkan, or Genbukan. they're doing thier own thing
with Bujinkan, some people may have fell out of favor with Hatsumi Sensei , or they trained at a ****ty school with shady instructors. so they talk smack about Hatsumi, Bujinkan, or the other X-kans.
theres people who used to train with Hatsumi and be posing with him in pictures then they turn around an talk smack about him an accusing the org of money marketing. but the funny thing about it is I dont recall Hatsumi ever talkin trash about any of these guys
Bujinkan is a combination of different Ryuhas or the 9 schools that have proven lineage but the Koryu board has issues with adding ninjutsu to thier list of schools.
there was Fujita Seiko. but you also have Jinichi Kawakami who is also of Koga, the Ban family line with a proven lineage.
thats the only authentic Koga-ryu ninjutsu around besides these other guys claiming to do Koga ninjutsu like Ashida Kim and Ronald Duncan but all they are doing is Bad Karate mixed with some jujutsu an a splish splash of Kung Fu
ive done my research an continue to do so as well as train with the top Masters when the opportunity presents itself. but here im just throwing in my 2 cents. cause u got all these jokers in the ninjutsu world that make the decent schools look bad
an have people who dont know too much about ninjutsu with a bad impression......like hollywood an popular media didnt do enough damage with that
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Shonobi I did not take that out of context in fact the whole paragraph is thus...
"As a decree of the previous masters of this school, that bound by pen & paper are forbidden. For if it stops at the written word, the depth of its truth comes to an end; the warrior arts with the infinite form the inner mystery, and see the certain victory. But, now composing this book, though it is like going against the former masters, for later study, writing down with the forms an elucidation, for after me when there is none fully initiated, I leave you this book; and yet as the masters spoke the meaning that grasps all the profoundity cannot be expressed in writing; one must realise this striving in one's practice."
This was a quote from Takamatsu, that Hatsumi requotes in his first book. Thus no Togakure Ryu desho exist before Takamatsu and Hatsumi's ninjutsu lineage is proven second generation at best. Takamatsu & Hatsumi were called frauds in Japan and no ninjutsu school has been proven beyond WW2 era. Many Japanese war crimes were dismissed due to the intelligence gathered by Japanese spies, all graduates of Nakano and all students of Seiko Fujita in the areas of martial arts, infiltration, escape, evasion, depersonalization, sabotage, espionage, assassination among other areas of study. Seiko Fujita also belived ninjutsu lacked effective unarmed fighting skills and so intermixed and improved on those skills with Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Judo, Kobudo and many other martial arts.
Does this mean that Ashida Kim is legitimate? No, but it means that Hatsumi's Togakure Ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu system can not be proven either. Thus any claim to his art being a koryu art. But, any arguement that Hatsumi is legitimate as a koryu artist is equally as invalid.
So we are left with only the understanding that all ninjutsu is either a modern creation, a fabricated system or otherwise complete falsehood. Ronald Duncan and Ashida Kim however do openly profile their systems as modernization of more traditonal forms & I suppose so to does Hatsumi. But, by that same standard we must ackowledge all claims to being a "koryu" art as complete falsehood. Then again we can make a similar arguement of all martial arts...
If all those within a system misrepresent that system, are they all not fraudulantly doing so? If Hatsumi's lineage goes no further then what his Yakamatsu had told him and he address historical accounts of ninjutsu is fraud as well? If Hatsumi, opennly admits no such records exist to prove his art as koryu, yet his students Hayes, Van Donk and others claim otherwise are they not frauds as well?
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Ashida Kim
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