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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,252
Home Country:
"As a decree of the previous masters of this school, that bound by pen & paper are forbidden. .........."
ok, i dont understand where your coming from as to how the paragraph you typed prooves the invalidity of togakure-ryu.
what he meant in that paragraph is prior to the book. specifics on techniques were not recorded in the scrolls. you'll see illustrations and written descriptions but its written in a way that if someone else got a hold of the scroll an tried to learn the techniques, it wont work out well.
"and yet as the masters spoke the meaning that grasps all the profoundity cannot be expressed in writing; one must realise this striving in one's practice."
....what this is saying is that in order to have a competent understanding in the techniques you should train with a Master cause books (training manuals) only go so far.
im sure youve seen the listing of the names of the Togakure-ryu Lineage
Daisuke Nishina one the people listed is proven to have been an actual person in History as shown by Kuyama Ryutora, a 3rd party researcher and historian. thats just an example
which shows that togakure-ryu is not second generation.
Where and When were Hatsumi and Takamatsu called Frauds in Japan?
Hatsumi has been awarded the International Culture Award by the Japanese Government, which is an Imperial Award, granted by a Member of the Japanese Imperial household
how can a Fraud recieve such a high Accolade? he also has many other awards and achievements such as being recognized by different Law enforcements ang Goverments like the FBI and the NSA
also in Japanese Culture and Society...if Hatsumi or Takamatsu were frauds, Hatsumi in particular would not have recieved those awards an they would be treated like "ghosts"
we can also go into the other schools Takamatsu inherited such as the Kukishin ryu and Gyokuryu which are documented. the Kukishin ryu is even recognized by the Kuki family of whom Takamatsu Sensie recieved permission to transmit thier scrolls.
Togakure-ryu for the most part is an Evasive ninpo art but the Bujinkan and other X-kans is not limited to it, there is also Gyokoshin-ryu Ninpo, and Kumagakure-ryu Ninpo.
ill be back for more when i get off work. laters
__________________
“You could do this same technique with a knife. Just keep it hidden. Don’t go swinging it around. We’re not yakuza here.”
“Don’t make the other person your opponent. If you do that, you lose your awareness to other people. Taijutsu is not just one on one.”
I watched a match of his and the moves and fight in it seemed Hokey, like a WWE match. The other fighter was an actor it seems by watching that fight. I found it hard to maintain a not cynical view of his matches. SO I will keep to my opinion that Ninjutsu is too highly a controversial martial art to judge anyone who does that martial art.
Probably was an ExhibitionXD
Sorry for replying to the 3rd post when you're on something else in the 30th postXD
__________________
JoaNor
Japanese "CowBoys": "Yee Haw, Rope 'em Dawggies" - 47MartialMan
White, Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black - 1st Dan, Black - 2nd Dan
Where and When were Hatsumi and Takamatsu called Frauds in Japan?
That would be back when Hatsumi first began teaching comercially in Japan, and up until then only Seiko Fujita was considered the "last ninja" in Japan. However, even then he had no desho either to prove this. Yet, he was the source for the elite training the Japanese spies and commandos during WW2.
In the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games"). Which is another issue, in itself since most children in Japan play "Ninja-gokko" it kind of like playing spy mixed with hide and seek here in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin
Hatsumi has been awarded the International Culture Award by the Japanese Government, which is an Imperial Award, granted by a Member of the Japanese Imperial household
how can a Fraud recieve such a high Accolade? he also has many other awards and achievements such as being recognized by different Law enforcements ang Goverments like the FBI and the NSA
also in Japanese Culture and Society...if Hatsumi or Takamatsu were frauds, Hatsumi in particular would not have recieved those awards an they would be treated like "ghosts"
First of all Hatsumi cultural award was based on him drawing tourism to Japan. His law enforcement award were based on what he taught those agencies none of those awards have anything to do with historical evidence of Hatsumi's school.
Unfortunately, Hatsumi is ignored by the two koryu organizations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin
we can also go into the other schools Takamatsu inherited such as the Kukishin ryu and Gyokuryu which are documented. the Kukishin ryu is even recognized by the Kuki family of whom Takamatsu Sensie recieved permission to transmit thier scrolls.
Togakure-ryu for the most part is an Evasive ninpo art but the Bujinkan and other X-kans is not limited to it, there is also Gyokoshin-ryu Ninpo, and Kumagakure-ryu Ninpo.
First of all Kukishin Ryu according to Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is listed as containing taijutu, bojutsu, kempo, naganata, hanbo, sojutsu and heiho (military strategy) it is not listed as a ninpo/ninjutsu school. In fact even if the heiho portion of the school lists using spies, assassin, ninja etc, it does not train for anything outside of stragic application their off. The claim that it is a ninpo school is unique to the Bujinkan. Also Kumagakure-Ryu is a system born in the 16th century and may well have been a koryu system but no such records have been varified to prove this.
If a martial art instructor misleads his students, is he marketing or a fraud? We could argue that since no statistic exists to show how many fights go to the ground, the Gracies are a fraud for saying 90% of all fights go to the ground. But since they proved their effectiveness their is little arguement that it works. But a sales pitch, concept of thought is very different from claim a densho (a transmission scroll); which includes not only techniques and principles but history as well, linking it to an older lineage.
Ashida Kim openly admits on his sight that he mixed his ninjutsu training, which focused on stealth and evasion with karate and judo. While Ashida can be targeted as for using drama to draw in students and keep many things secret, he has be given numerious awards from the US Army, Florida Police, The South African & Austillian militaries.
Ronald Duncan claims his ninjutsu lineage from Seiko Fujita's Nakano Lessons/Koga Ryu Ninjutsu research to Don Draeger to himself. Like, Hatsumi Ron Duncan has numerious awards from Navy SEALS, the FBI, Chicago PD and NYPD.
None of those awards prove lineage. At best Ashida Kim and Ronald Duncan can be accused of teaching modern ninjutsu. But, if history suits me correctly; and it does becuase I've spoke with two martial arts historians Julian Meed and Karl Friday Seiko Fujita was modernizing his Ninjutsu with Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Judo, Sumo, Kobudo, and Kenpo.
So we are left with again accepting that ninjutsu is a modern creation or complete fraud. Since ninjitsu is a stealth based art it would only make sense to moderize that art with updated fighting methods. If something has value it will be awarded, an award proves only a certain amount of cedibility. You forget, martial arts is a business and expect it to be less then honest in much of the way it advertised.
Thats I don't think lineage is proof of anything its basically just another sells gimic...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Why is there even a discussion. If what Ashida Kim teaches is handed down over centuries from past groups of ninjas well no wonder why they were all wiped out because it sucks. If he has invented a new system by blending older systems why does it matter because it still sucks.
The bottom line of this is, fraud or not, Ashida Kim is a poor martial artist who teaches a crappy system and, uses controversy as a way of marketing. I would to if I sucked as bad.
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I'm a shark, the ground game is my ocean. And most people don't know how to swim. Oh yeah and I can knock you out too
Everything I know in life, I learned from watching the Fall Guy.
The bottom line of this is, fraud or not, Ashida Kim is a poor martial artist who teaches a crappy system and, uses controversy as a way of marketing. I would to if I sucked as bad.
Then by that standard MMA sucks because sites like Bullshido use pretty much similar tactics with controversy as a marketing ploy. But, then again that might be true of every MA at some point in time. Damn I'm starting to see why Joe refuses to watch Never Back Down lol.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
I saw his patened levitating technique once. They even used a hula hoop to "proove" that he was off the ground. Unfortunatly, his ass never left the ground, but his legs did quiver a lot.....and the hulahoop avoided his posterior also.
IMO - Ashida Kim = poor at the art of illusion and possibly marketing....but not martial arts. BUT, isn't that what the old "ninja" considered themselves? "Masters of illusion"? Oh, wait...if he was a "master" at it, he would be Chris Angel...Mind Freak.
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,252
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
That would be back when Hatsumi first began teaching comercially in Japan, and up until then only Seiko Fujita was considered the "last ninja" in Japan. However, even then he had no desho either to prove this. Yet, he was the source for the elite training the Japanese spies and commandos during WW2.
In the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games"). Which is another issue, in itself since most children in Japan play "Ninja-gokko" it kind of like playing spy mixed with hide and seek here in the US.
First of all Hatsumi cultural award was based on him drawing tourism to Japan. His law enforcement award were based on what he taught those agencies none of those awards have anything to do with historical evidence of Hatsumi's school.
Unfortunately, Hatsumi is ignored by the two koryu organizations.
First of all Kukishin Ryu according to Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is listed as containing taijutu, bojutsu, kempo, naganata, hanbo, sojutsu and heiho (military strategy) it is not listed as a ninpo/ninjutsu school. In fact even if the heiho portion of the school lists using spies, assassin, ninja etc, it does not train for anything outside of stragic application their off. The claim that it is a ninpo school is unique to the Bujinkan. Also Kumagakure-Ryu is a system born in the 16th century and may well have been a koryu system but no such records have been varified to prove this.
If a martial art instructor misleads his students, is he marketing or a fraud? We could argue that since no statistic exists to show how many fights go to the ground, the Gracies are a fraud for saying 90% of all fights go to the ground. But since they proved their effectiveness their is little arguement that it works. But a sales pitch, concept of thought is very different from claim a densho (a transmission scroll); which includes not only techniques and principles but history as well, linking it to an older lineage.
Ashida Kim openly admits on his sight that he mixed his ninjutsu training, which focused on stealth and evasion with karate and judo. While Ashida can be targeted as for using drama to draw in students and keep many things secret, he has be given numerious awards from the US Army, Florida Police, The South African & Austillian militaries.
Ronald Duncan claims his ninjutsu lineage from Seiko Fujita's Nakano Lessons/Koga Ryu Ninjutsu research to Don Draeger to himself. Like, Hatsumi Ron Duncan has numerious awards from Navy SEALS, the FBI, Chicago PD and NYPD.
None of those awards prove lineage. At best Ashida Kim and Ronald Duncan can be accused of teaching modern ninjutsu. But, if history suits me correctly; and it does becuase I've spoke with two martial arts historians Julian Meed and Karl Friday Seiko Fujita was modernizing his Ninjutsu with Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Judo, Sumo, Kobudo, and Kenpo.
So we are left with again accepting that ninjutsu is a modern creation or complete fraud. Since ninjitsu is a stealth based art it would only make sense to moderize that art with updated fighting methods. If something has value it will be awarded, an award proves only a certain amount of cedibility. You forget, martial arts is a business and expect it to be less then honest in much of the way it advertised.
Thats I don't think lineage is proof of anything its basically just another sells gimic...
from what ive dug up an been told by Senior Shihan is that Takamatsu Sensei and Fujita Sieko knew each other and corresponded with each other. but as most folks know alot of people didnt know that Takamatsu did ninjutsu till after he died, they only knew of him doing Jujutsu.
i take "Last Ninja" as being active ninja in the Traditional sense even years after Meiji Restoration Era. no doubt he was that....as far as Koga goes and in his family line cause we still have the other Koga Ban-family line.
but im wondering....if, how, where would Ashida Kim have gotten training from Fujita Seiko's line, i dont think he Knows or ever trainined with Jinichi Kawakami, correct me if im wrong
so...where did he learn Koga Hai Lung? from who? im not really concerned with him combining/ incorporating other arts into Koga Hai Lung
because no matter what Style it is....its part of the Menkyo Kaiden holder of that art's responsibily to innovate and incorporate, fine-tune transmit techniques as they see fit
which has to do with the Art being more effective and adapting to modern times and also the art's survival as the decades go by.
Bugei ryuha daijiten is not considered a primary source for information concerning Takamatsu's Togakure-ryu or the other arts that it features, even though him and Watatani were close friends
even though the Cultural Award is for drawing tourism to Japan, the Imperial Household isnt gonna award that to a Fraud.
and that also means that they Acknowledge his school.
i mentioned the law enforcements and goverments for sake of showing that they acknowledge his school and the skills of its students.
if i worded it that way i didnt intend to but i wasnt implying that Kukishinden is ninjutsu. what i was getting at is that its a documented ryuha.
i typed this before. but Koryu orgs have an issue with ninjutsu in general no matter who its from. an the best way i can translate it to the West is that its kinda like Democratic and Republic
but it doesnt mean that because ninjutsu or any other art that is not acknowledged by the Koryu orgs is fraudulent. they just have issues an in some cases with documentation of lineage
many of which are transmitted via oral-tradition.
Hatsumi Sensei also feels that he has nothing to proove to these guys so he ignores them as they ignore him.
he feels that thier methods of combat are beneath him. koryu people call ninjutsu practicioners names because they are doing koryu arts
but just because they are doing koryu arts doesnt mean that they are ultimately effective in combat.
alot of these guys are basically Japanophile Samurai LARPers who hide behind an organization and point fingers.
__________________
“You could do this same technique with a knife. Just keep it hidden. Don’t go swinging it around. We’re not yakuza here.”
“Don’t make the other person your opponent. If you do that, you lose your awareness to other people. Taijutsu is not just one on one.”
I'm not very experienced or proficient in martial arts, so, does his movements and techniques in his videos look "real" to you? Or do they seem sloppy? The answer of this question alone, may solve the whole problem, I think.
While people may argue the Takamatsu false ninja lineage, by claiming the Bugei ryuha daijiten is not the absolute source. It is the same source they point to say that Seiko Fujita did not pass on his Koga Ryu Wada-Ha system. He never did; however he changed the name with the modernization of the system to Koga Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu; which was taught only to the Commandos and Spies from Nakano.
While Jinichi Kawakami is a historian and researcher unless he was trained at Nakano or from someone previously trained there he doesn't have a connection to Seiko Fujita or Koga Ryu Wada Ha Ninjutsu (The origional family style)or Koga Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu (The modernization taught to Commandos at Nakano). So he is questionable at best his authenticity is often propetated by the Iga Ryu Musium which is a tourist attraction and not an education (natural history) institution...
Now on the issue of Ashida Kim's Koga Hai Lung Ryu which you asked about, ashida opens states on his site he had learned Shotokan Karate, Judo, Wrestling, Kung-fu, & TKD before learning ninjitsu due to his father being stationed in the military. He even states that the ninjitsu he learned was primarily stealth based, and that he has intigrated all those aspects into his own system.
As for who taught he claims an individual by the name of Shendai. Considering that members of the Nakano School evaded being charged with war crimes because they had intelligence which was used until the end of the Cold War era & that their methods was adapted by the U.S. & British military (the reason that British SAS claimed training in ninjutsu before anyone else did in the late 70s).
It is perfectly plausable that he could have been taught something? Just as it is perfectly plausable that Takamatsu & Hatsumi are legitimate as well. The thing, that is important to remember is that while your right the martial arts organizations are bias in there own politics. The thing is independant researchers from government ran natural history museums do not reconize anyone as proven authentic ninjutsu.
Even then, you can trace judo to ninjutsu (Kano trained with both Takamatsu and Fujita). The important thing is not the history of school, which means nothing in itself if it can't be proven. Which it is not. The importance as Norton stated is how effective it seems.
As for Broussard; you do realize he is crippled right? That he has suffer some kind of low back and hip injury from a car crash. So he is basically demonstrating ninjitsu for the handicapped. I think showing him is somewhat a one sided distortion of the facts. Also he isn't a student of Ashida Kim's ninjitsu style, but a friend whoom Ashida respects for his own personal achievements in practicing martial arts with a significant physical handicap.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Even more now, I think Ashida Kim is a fraud. Yes, some of the things he teaches are useful and plausable, but it seems that most of it is watered down regular ole karate. Nothing special to it. As for his little walk in the forest (sentry removal techniques), I find it completely full of crap. Try any of those things in real life, and you will be shot. No way is a "sentry" going to be out in the middle of a field all alone. Further, there is no way they would fall for a rock in the pond or puddle of water.
Ashida Kim
Linear Mode
