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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Prove that a) martial arts didn't decline after the Meiji Restoration and b) that shiai (tournaments) before that time were not near combat since no such sports existed?
Give me some historic reference much like did to prove your point...
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Prove that a) martial arts didn't decline after the Meiji Restoration and b) that shiai (tournaments) before that time were not near combat since no such sports existed?
...
You are looking at the wrong part. It's your conclusions and sweeping generalizations that are ridiculous.
You are looking at the wrong part. It's your conclusions and sweeping generalizations that are ridiculous.
In what way Sake?
You seemed to either refuse to name any sources and state any opinin besides I'm wrong. Which means your placing your opinin above historic facts, which means your basically in a state of denial about said historical facts.
There is also the issue of so called "generalizations." What generalizations, since I'm limiting my arguement to Japanese jujutsu and said former Samurai culture. Thats hardly a generalization I'm simply pointing out facts, again your in a state of denial. Which means that again your acting like troll; otherwise you's have a point other then proclaiming someone wrong without any specific facts to contend with said already established historic facts brought up in my arguement. So I'm gonna ask anyway, dude do have anything remotely intelligent to add or are just that inept?
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
I think it's much easier than everyone is making it out to be.
Traditional Martial Arts contain Katas.
But do judo and jujistu contain katas? What about taekkyon?
What I think would be a good idea is if everyone one on this thread made a list of the martial arts they thought to be traditional, and a list of arts that they thought to be non traditional. Then argued over the differences.
The thing is, how much tradition has to be involved to make it TMA? Muay thai seems to have alot of tradition involved in it, but that tradition hasn't survived the journey over to the west (correct me if I'm wrong).
edit:GoddeBPM beat me to the punch (no pun intended) over the muay thai point.
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Ah, Steven Seagull, I bet nobody's thought of that before.
Since modern Japan considered such combat as barbaric, uncivilized and a sign of a forgotten (fuedal) era...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
All that is true, but Jujutsu was in decline because it was seen as old barbaric tradition of violence.
The above are conclusions and interpretations rather than facts. The 'fuedal' era was never "forgotten" and "violence" as manifested in controlled expressions of physical courage and skill has never been seen as iherently negative as a matter of culture in Japan. At the time of the Meiji restoration there was a deliberate and necessary effort at distinguishing the ruling system from the previous Tokugawa Shogunate, but the same factors that tend to make martial prowess and personal courage admired in all cultures did not - of course - cease to exist in Japan. In fact, the (real) 'Last Samurai,' a fella by the name of Saigo Takamori, became a folk hero of the highest order immediately after he was killed by government forces in a futile, violent last stand against the forces of 'modernity' in Japan. The ideal of bushido has always held a strong place in Japanese culture, which is why it was co-opted by the very regime that 'officially' ended the Samurai as a social class in order to motivate their modern army (by allowing common folk who became soldiers to feel as if they were the legitimate inheritors of the bushido tradition) and unify the country.
Your conclusions and generalizations seem to be the product of nothing more than your personal assumptions.
Last edited by Sake Sipper; 08-15-2008 at 09:18 AM.
But do judo and jujistu contain katas? What about taekkyon?
What I think would be a good idea is if everyone one on this thread made a list of the martial arts they thought to be traditional, and a list of arts that they thought to be non traditional. Then argued over the differences.
The thing is, how much tradition has to be involved to make it TMA? Muay thai seems to have alot of tradition involved in it, but that tradition hasn't survived the journey over to the west (correct me if I'm wrong).
edit:GoddeBPM beat me to the punch (no pun intended) over the muay thai point.
Not sure about Jujutsu, but there are katas in Judo, this is where the strike are in Judo, but it is very rare, I haven't seen it performed yet, not even in the adults class (Which is full of black belts), so it may not have come over to the West, or our club is more sports orientated.
But BJJ is an art commonly associated with MMA, why do practitioners wear gis(You guys call it kimonos right?), I consider that a practice of traditional martial arts,
A. It's a tribute to the culture it's derived from.
B. Nobody wears it outside of ceremonies (Or the genuine Kimono, which the modern JJ kimono derives from.)
Yeah, I gotta say I def label BJJ and JJ as TMA. Especially when you consider that they really dont incorporate all ranges of fighting. A 90 to 10 split isnt exaclty what I call balanced. And I think thats symptomatic of TMAs. The focus is very specific range of combat.
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Yeah, I gotta say I def label BJJ and JJ as TMA. Especially when you consider that they really dont incorporate all ranges of fighting. A 90 to 10 split isnt exaclty what I call balanced. And I think thats symptomatic of TMAs. The focus is very specific range of combat.
But the same could be said for wrestling and boxing, but I don't reckon they're very traditional even if they have VERY extensive histories.
By any chance would it have anything to do with an origin of a martial art? I mean, most TMAs I(Emphasize on I) can think of are Asian, whilst the majority of Western martial arts(Not including BJJ because of it's Japanese influence), don't really focus on traditional aspects(You don't tend to have a 5 minute pre-fight worship dance thingiemajig before a boxing match).
But the same could be said for wrestling and boxing, but I don't reckon they're very traditional even if they have VERY extensive histories.
By any chance would it have anything to do with an origin of a martial art? I mean, most TMAs I(Emphasize on I) can think of are Asian, whilst the majority of Western martial arts(Not including BJJ because of it's Japanese influence), don't really focus on traditional aspects(You don't tend to have a 5 minute pre-fight worship dance thingiemajig before a boxing match).
Yeah I can get down with that. Especially since I dont consider wrestling nor boxing to be martial arts.
__________________ The name means...No matter how many times you cut him, he will never fall. My soul cutter has no name, it is merely a tool.
I'll Still Kill!
Even the best of men are capable of the most disgusting evil. Just as the most evil man is capable of showing kindness.
Do not be fooled into thinking your enemy's sin is worse than yours, or that your's is better than his.
Would people here called Judo a TMA? I wouldn't quite class Judo as a traditional martial art, since it seems to be largely geared toward sports competition.
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Ah, Steven Seagull, I bet nobody's thought of that before.
Yeah I can get down with that. Especially since I dont consider wrestling nor boxing to be martial arts.
I don't know, I always consider wrestling and boxing to be a martial art for some reason. It doesn't have the whole, 'wax on, wax off' thing to it, but at the end of the day, it's still a system of combat, and even if people don't refer to it as a martial art, I personally would always consider it to be one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N.B
Would people here called Judo a TMA? I wouldn't quite class Judo as a traditional martial art, since it seems to be largely geared toward sports competition.
Judo is weird like Muay Thai, even though it has this large philosophical side, and quite a bit of etiquette to it, for me, it's completely sports orientated. We practice for competitions, and even though we are, we never say stuff like we're building character, well at least not that I've heard of. (By we, I mean my dojo.)
What defines a TMA from an MMA?
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