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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
I'm getting a bit confused? Is Muay Thai a TMA? Even though it has proven itself in many MMA circuits, it's quite a common stand-up style for MMA fighters, but it has quite a bit of strong traditions. Does the difference between MMA and TMA is when a martial arts breaks from it's traditional roots and practices and is only used for sports? You all know I'm no BJJ expert but I haven't heard of many traditions, wax on and wax off stuff, but maybe it's just how things are in London, but there isn't much philosophy taught either. Well yeah, what is the definition of a TMA or MMA?
These are just my opinionated definitions based on experience. It was almost impossible to find a finite definition for either.
TMA:
Total Martial Art
Many disciplines taught separately in their (near)totality, but I think this acronym, and saying is used subjectively, for example, Ballys Total Fitness uses the term TMA to describe the many martial arts disciplines it teaches and attributes a philosophy to its methods.
MMA:
Mixed Martial Art
Competition and methods using many different elements from various martial arts to train in.
These are just my opinionated definitions based on experience. It was almost impossible to find a finite definition for either.
TMA:
Total Martial Art
Many disciplines taught separately in their (near)totality, but I think this acronym, and saying is used subjectively, for example, Ballys Total Fitness uses the term TMA to describe the many martial arts disciplines it teaches and attributes a philosophy to its methods.
MMA:
Mixed Martial Art
Competition and methods using many different elements from various martial arts to train in.
These are just my opinionated definitions based on experience. It was almost impossible to find a finite definition for either.
TMA:
Total Martial Art
Many disciplines taught separately in their (near)totality, but I think this acronym, and saying is used subjectively, for example, Ballys Total Fitness uses the term TMA to describe the many martial arts disciplines it teaches and attributes a philosophy to its methods.
MMA:
Mixed Martial Art
Competition and methods using many different elements from various martial arts to train in.
LOL. Me thinks youve been on this site far too long to still not know abbreviations.
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I'll Still Kill!
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I've got an opinion on this that may be controversial. I recently read an article in Black Belt magazine that stated a better way to categorize martial arts would be RMA, XMA and SMA - Reality Martial Arts, Extreme Martial Arts, and Sport Martial Arts.
Reality martial arts teach combative methods with absolutely no competitive rules attached, ever. U.S. Army Combatives and Krav Maga would be good examples.
Extreme martial arts incorporates gymnastics into combative techniques for demonstration or competition. The Century XMA team's forms and demos (or some branches of TKD and karate) would fit under this category.
Sport martial arts teach combative methods that are often limited by competitive rules and restrictions. Judo, BJJ, and Muay Thai would all fit under this.
Now I'm really no big fan of putting things into categories because I think you really limit your thinking when you do this, but it seems like those distinctions make more sense than Tradtional Martial Arts and Mixed Martial Arts. Either way, I believe there are too many gray areas in between all the listed categories for most martial arts to fit into just one. JMHO
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"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
I'm getting a bit confused? Is Muay Thai a TMA? Even though it has proven itself in many MMA circuits, it's quite a common stand-up style for MMA fighters, but it has quite a bit of strong traditions. Does the difference between MMA and TMA is when a martial arts breaks from it's traditional roots and practices and is only used for sports? You all know I'm no BJJ expert but I haven't heard of many traditions, wax on and wax off stuff, but maybe it's just how things are in London, but there isn't much philosophy taught either. Well yeah, what is the definition of a TMA or MMA?
In my opinion:
TMAs focus on the kata and performing and perfecting techniques to advance. i.e., TKD, karate, hapkido, aikido, TSD, Tai chi, JJJ. In these arts a black belt means that the person can perform the moves. It does not mean these people can use the moves in a live situation.
Combative Arts focus on ability to perform moves in a live 100% resistance situation. i.e., MT, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Judo, Krav Maga, Wrestling. In these arts, belts arent really important, but ranking, whether it be belts or achievements is based on the ability to use the moves in a live situation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john55
In my opinion:
TMAs focus on the kata and performing and perfecting techniques to advance. i.e., TKD, karate, hapkido, aikido, TSD, Tai chi, JJJ. In these arts a black belt means that the person can perform the moves. It does not mean these people can use the moves in a live situation.
Combative Arts focus on ability to perform moves in a live 100% resistance situation. i.e., MT, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Judo, Krav Maga, Wrestling. In these arts, belts arent really important, but ranking, whether it be belts or achievements is based on the ability to use the moves in a live situation.
Real traditional martial arts are not about kata and perfecting technique. They are about fighting and phylosophy. Many modern day martial arts are called traditional when they have little in common with what the art was originally. A large part of that is due to removing the combat out of the art in place of sport or aescetic reasons...or because a teacher never learned it. If part of the training does not include fully resisiting opponents then it is NOT a traditional martial art nor a combat art.
Real traditional martial arts are not about kata and perfecting technique. They are about fighting and phylosophy. Many modern day martial arts are called traditional when they have little in common with what the art was originally. A large part of that is due to removing the combat out of the art in place of sport or aescetic reasons...or because a teacher never learned it. If part of the training does not include fully resisiting opponents then it is NOT a traditional martial art nor a combat art.
Whether part of the training includes it or not, advancement in TMAs do not rely on being able to actually use your moves against a fully resistant opponent. I mean in my TKD dojo, we sparred full contact standing only but you didnt have to be good to get a belt. You could suck at sparring and still get a black belt. And I think real traditional martial arts are about kata. I mean, they all can and do trace their roots back to war times, 1000s of years ago, etc. Its where most of their arguments about their moves effectiveness comes into play. I mean look at the history of Judo, the whole reason it was started was because JJJ couldnt be practiced against fully resisting opponents because it was too dangerous.
Personally I don't like the common TMA definition myself. As has already been said there is allot of gray areas, and in my opinion its not the system but the intentions of those who teach the system that determine were a system lies or what a system is about...
TMAs- Are martial arts drawn from a historic heretage and martial traditon. That can cover Karate as much as Muay Thai, since most traditional martial arts have a ritualized way of conducting practices based on the cultures they were created in. Since muay thai often includes the prefight rituals homage and removing the head circlet, a must under Muay Thai rules.
Sport MAs- Which are practiced to compete in various events, this is essentually a gray area since an art can be a TMA and an SMA at the same time. However, most sport based systems restrict training to the rules of compition. This can avry from Karate or TKD point sparring to BJJ & MMA (which is sport and not a specific martial art).
Combat MAs- Are martial arts that focus on unresticted combat skills, and using whatever work. Again these can vary from considered TMAs like Karate to considered sport MAs like BJJ and may well include none martial art combat systems like LINE training or anyone of various hand-to-hand combatives systems.
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Whether part of the training includes it or not, advancement in TMAs do not rely on being able to actually use your moves against a fully resistant opponent. I mean in my TKD dojo, we sparred full contact standing only but you didnt have to be good to get a belt. You could suck at sparring and still get a black belt. And I think real traditional martial arts are about kata. I mean, they all can and do trace their roots back to war times, 1000s of years ago, etc. Its where most of their arguments about their moves effectiveness comes into play. I mean look at the history of Judo, the whole reason it was started was because JJJ couldnt be practiced against fully resisting opponents because it was too dangerous.
Wrong... Judo came about because most people would not practice in any martial arts, because of modern Japanese society's views on violence.
When the fuedalism ended and martial arts began to decline so to did the need for more combat focused training and prearranged forms (kata) before then kata was used to practice the more dangerous techniques and however, there was a thing called tsujinage and sometime tsujigiri, which was basically an anything goes duel. It was consider that to be a true master one would have to have fought many tsujinage.
Since modern Japan considered such combat as barbaric, uncivilized and a sign of a forgotten (fuedal) era, most martial arts survived as kata training only. There was no tsujinage to test a martial artists skills. Jugaro Kano took randori from Tenjin-shinyo-ryu Jujitsu, and popularized it in judo by lengthening the sleeve of the Kimono and created the judo gi.
As such most Koryu Bujutsu systems survive as academic study only. More so, allot of psuedo-traditional martial arts; systems which claim a traditional lineage but don't keep the combative focus of such a tradition. But, this all relates back to my little thread on how martial arts are a business and how gimics are used to mislead a prospective customer.
Even something like TKD which was orgionally a modern military system in Korea, has been turned into a sport and a form of academic study which is far removed from its origional intent...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Wrong... Judo came about because most people would not practice in any martial arts, because of modern Japanese society's views on violence.
When the fuedalism ended and martial arts began to decline so to did the need for more combat focused training and prearranged forms (kata) before then kata was used to practice the more dangerous techniques and however, there was a thing called tsujinage and sometime tsujigiri, which was basically an anything goes duel. It was consider that to be a true master one would have to have fought many tsujinage.
Since modern Japan considered such combat as barbaric, uncivilized and a sign of a forgotten (fuedal) era, most martial arts survived as kata training only. There was no tsujinage to test a martial artists skills. Jugaro Kano took randori from Tenjin-shinyo-ryu Jujitsu, and popularized it in judo by lengthening the sleeve of the Kimono and created the judo gi.
As such most Koryu Bujutsu systems survive as academic study only. More so, allot of psuedo-traditional martial arts; systems which claim a traditional lineage but don't keep the combative focus of such a tradition. But, this all relates back to my little thread on how martial arts are a business and how gimics are used to mislead a prospective customer.
Even something like TKD which was orgionally a modern military system in Korea, has been turned into a sport and a form of academic study which is far removed from its origional intent...
No, that is wrong.
"Around 1880 Kano started rethinking the jujitsu techniques he had learned. He saw that by combining the best techniques of various schools into one system he could create a physical education program that would embody mental and physical skill. In addition, he believed that the techniques could be practiced as a competitive sport if the more dangerous techniques were omitted.
So in 1882, having pulled from ancient jujitsu the best of its throws and grappling techniques, added some of his own, and removed such dangerous techniques as foot and hand strikes. Kano at the age of 22, presented his new sport--Judo. He called this sport Kodokan Judo. The term Kodokan breaks down into ko (lecture, study, method), do (way or path), and kan (hall or place). Thus it means "a place to study the way." Similarly Judo breaks down into ju (gentle) and do (way or path) or "the gentle way." "
"Around 1880 Kano started rethinking the jujitsu techniques he had learned. He saw that by combining the best techniques of various schools into one system he could create a physical education program that would embody mental and physical skill. In addition, he believed that the techniques could be practiced as a competitive sport if the more dangerous techniques were omitted.
So in 1882, having pulled from ancient jujitsu the best of its throws and grappling techniques, added some of his own, and removed such dangerous techniques as foot and hand strikes. Kano at the age of 22, presented his new sport--Judo. He called this sport Kodokan Judo. The term Kodokan breaks down into ko (lecture, study, method), do (way or path), and kan (hall or place). Thus it means "a place to study the way." Similarly Judo breaks down into ju (gentle) and do (way or path) or "the gentle way." "
All that is true, but Jujutsu was in decline because it was seen as old barbaric tradition of violence. So Kano turned it into a sport, that has nothing to do with what I've said. Nor does it relate to the point.
a- A so called traditional martial arts are academic/educational study today. Unless anyone has even been attacked a horde of samurai warriors on horse back while in 17th century Japan?
b- That as an older system they were more combative then the academic studies taught today.
c- That simply because the older shiai (tournaments) were very brutal and unrestricted they resulted in allot of injury and even deaths. When people changed their views they saw martial arts as an evil of the past, so martial arts evolved into either academic studies or sports or both.
"It was during this time that Japanese politics disintegrated into disarray. Commodore Perry's visit to Japan in the mid-1850's also changed Japanese civilization by opening up a new world to them. In 1868 Imperial rule was restored (Meiji Restoration) and the decline of the Samurai class started along with a rapid decline in all martial arts. Although the government did not officially ban the martial arts, people were not encouraged to learn or practice them since the state was considered more important than the individual. Jujitsu literally fell into disuse. What was once the glory of the samurai was now looked down on and many well established jujitsu schools began to disappear.
If the budo concept was to survive the Meiji Restoration, it had to change and become a tool to cultivate an individual and make him a better person for the good of all. As a result budo found a home in physical education and sport.
Sport provided teamwork which was good for all and also developed the individual. It was a complete physical education; not just a game. Although self defense techniques were included in the training, emphasis was on using the techniques in a holistic manner. Dr. Jigoro Kano is credited with jujitsu's survival of the Meiji Restoration. He took jujitsu and adapted it to the times. His new methodology was called Judo.
In 1882, Dr. Jigoro Kano (The Father of Judo) made a comprehensive study of these ancient self defense forms and integrated the best of these forms into a sport which is known as Kodokan Judo. "
e- Truly traditional based martial arts are based on combat, not the academic study training methods and psychology.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
What defines a TMA from an MMA?
I'll Still Kill!
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