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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
Hi,
I'm interested in finding out what modern Martial artists think of Bruce Lee. I've got lots of friends (most of whom Know nothing about real martial arts)who consider him to be the hardest, greatest fighter of all time regardless of size or fighting style of opponent. To be honest I dont know much about Lee so please correct me if i`m wrong, but the impression i get is that he was guy who was seriously into martial arts and made his name in the martial arts movies as an "actor" not a real-life fighter. If he was the ultimate fighting machine, master of all fighting disciplines that many consider him why did he not enter any high-profile contests e.g Judo, Karate, wrestling, boxing etc. and clean up? I've heard people suggest that if Lee was in his prime now he could enter an open weight UFC and win? I find this hard to believe.
From what I've read Bruce Lee grew up in Hong Kong and used to be a member of a street gang (Source: Linda Lee & Yip Man). At some point Bruce challenged Yip Man and got his tail handed to him. Afterward, Yip Man began teaching Lee Wing Chun until he was forced to stop do to Lee's impure (1/8th German) ancestory.
In the US, Lee was born in Cali and so had an American birth certificate & SSN. Lee made a name for himself in movies, that is true but Lee had attracted allot of attention becuase he would teach anyone who wanted to learn. Thats part of Lee became famous; he accepted Black students which few Asian instructors would do and so ended training some very famous Afican-American atheletes who brought in some famous actors and so on.
Lee had fought several challenges, but did not fight for sport. He didn't believe that limiting one's training to a set of rules was good for the individual or the art. More so, even though Lee was a "striker" he had mixed grappling into much of his training. A few of Bruce Lees movies were written by him and addressed his philosphical views. For example, in Game of Death and even was allowed to write a few episodes of the Green Hornet to address the martial arts.
In the said episode Kato (Lee's character) had to fight a rival kung-fu master who was Kato's superior in every way. Kato defeated this rival by using methods from other systems, displaying Lee's philosophy adaptation and fluidity as opposed to fixed forms and especially fixed forms of thought.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
From what I've read Bruce Lee grew up in Hong Kong and used to be a member of a street gang (Linda Lee & Yip Man). At some point Bruce challenged Yip Man and got his tail handed to him. Afterward, Yip Man began teaching Lee Wing Chun until he was forced to stop do to Lee's impure (1/8th German) ancestory.
In the US, Lee was born in Cali and so had an American birth certificate & SSN. Lee made a name for himself in movies, that is true but Lee had attracted allot of attention becuase he would teach anyone who wanted to learn. Thats part of Lee became famous; he accepted Black students which few Asian instructors would do and so ended training some very famous Afican-American atheletes who brought in some famous actors and so on.
Lee had fought several challenges, but did not fight for sport. He didn't believe that limiting one's training to a set of rules was good for the individual or the art. More so, even though Lee was a "striker" he had mixed grappling into much of his training. A few of Bruce Lees movies were written by him and addressed his philosphical views. For example, in Game of Death and even was allowed to write a few episodes of the Green Hornet to address the martial arts.
In the said episode Kato (Lee's character) had to fight a rival kung-fu master who was Kato's superior in every way. Kato defeated this rival by using methods from other systems, displaying Lee's philosophy adaptation and fluidity as opposed to fixed forms and especially fixed forms of thought.
The legendary Yip Man was a gangster? And I read somewhere, I can't remember where exactly, it may have been one of his books, but Yip Man continued to teach him in private as his classmates didn't want to learn with him.
I guess there are two types of Lee fans, the movie fans and the JKD fans. Bruce Lee's movie fans would say he's the best fighter in the world and all, out of ignorance. Whereas people who know about Lee beyond the well-choreographed fight scenes and well-synced squeals respect him for something different. Many would say that he was the founder of MMA or something amongst the lines of that crap, but he popularized the already established cross-training methods. Still he's pretty cool, I reckon you should try pick up a copy of one of his books.
And he would of been too old for the UFC.
Oh yeah, sorry if none of this made sense, I just realised I was spewing random crap and facts.
The legendary Yip Man was a gangster? And I read somewhere, I can't remember where exactly, it may have been one of his books, but Yip Man continued to teach him in private as his classmates didn't want to learn with him.
No Lee was the gangerster, or ex-gangster to be procise...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,252
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I think Bruce Lee was a very talented and gifted Martial artist. i enjoy his movies cause in addition to the choreography, he also had a funny sense of humor. great personality. i dont agree with some of his views
but great personality. some people think he was some ultimate fighter but i dont go with that. talented but not a champion fighter the only thing he was a champion in is.....Cha Cha dancing and beatin some unknown second rate boxer in a boxing tournament as a youth
he made some good points about TMA but alot of his views were at times arrogant and ignorant, like thinking that all classical arts are watered down and dont think outside the box
__________________
“You could do this same technique with a knife. Just keep it hidden. Don’t go swinging it around. We’re not yakuza here.”
“Don’t make the other person your opponent. If you do that, you lose your awareness to other people. Taijutsu is not just one on one.”
he made some good points about TMA but alot of his views were at times arrogant and ignorant, like thinking that all classical arts are watered down and dont think outside the box
I would not agree with this.
In what way do you think he was ignorant, and in what ways do you think martial arts "think outside the box"?
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magister
I would not agree with this.
In what way do you think he was ignorant, and in what ways do you think martial arts "think outside the box"?
he made it seem like All Traditional arts are rigid and formalistic and that they dont innovate and improve on thier arts.
by think outside the box i mean exploring the spiritual and esoterical aspect of MA as well as reality based defense and body conditioning an Nutrition.....
not being stuck in your own little world
__________________
“You could do this same technique with a knife. Just keep it hidden. Don’t go swinging it around. We’re not yakuza here.”
“Don’t make the other person your opponent. If you do that, you lose your awareness to other people. Taijutsu is not just one on one.”
he made it seem like All Traditional arts are rigid and formalistic and that they dont innovate and improve on thier arts.
by think outside the box i mean exploring the spiritual and esoterical aspect of MA as well as reality based defense and body conditioning an Nutrition.....
not being stuck in your own little world
But don't martial arts continue to do that even today? Don't sport martial arts limit their techniques and training programs to playing by the rules of the sport? Don't allot of martial arts exist as way keeping alive a tradition without keeping alive the spirit of the tradition?
If you have ever read Tao of Jeet Kune Do, you basically have to read the Tao te Ching to get a better understanding of it. In Lees assessment every art is held back by thoughts and actions of its practicers and while there are those who follow their own ideas of a martial art. Even then most people are obsessed with that image and so locked in their own little worlds.
Whats funny is that because Lee points out that a martial artist is stuck in their own ideas of what a martial art is or isn't how it should be practiced or addressed, most poeple think Lee was above that. In truth he understood he wasn't which is why Jeet Kune Do is about stripping away the excess to find the individuals own way.
Lee once said "When Jeet Kune Do becomes a martial art then it has failed in its purpose."
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
he made it seem like All Traditional arts are rigid and formalistic and that they dont innovate and improve on thier arts.
by think outside the box i mean exploring the spiritual and esoterical aspect of MA as well as reality based defense and body conditioning an Nutrition.....
not being stuck in your own little world
TMA do not innovate, they imitate. How much of the martial art is actually your own expression? When you watch martial artists holding "crane stances" and "tiger postures", whose expression are they demonstrating? It is certainly not their own...
Many people on this forum will know that I am very much the advocate of self-teaching - but this does not mean simply reading books about martial arts. Kant once declared that real learning is from organic experience, through sensual experience of the outside world. What martial arts represent is formalised expression in which practitioners become indoctrinated into a pre-existing doctine of imitatin rather than liberating themselves to learn organically.
By far, Lee was against being stuck in a subjectivist world and it was for that reason that he beleived that martial artists should not have their personal expression dictated by the teachings of a martial art.
Moreover, far from being ignorant, his "shocking" or "ahead of his time" considerations (as part of his own process) were based upon study of philosphy and science; much more besides the closed and inward looking world of martial arts.
Lee was not one to ignore spiritualism - he actually stated that his main goal was to become an "Artist of Life", in otherwords, martial arts was a vehicle in which he could master his life, and in the process master life itself. In this way, he is a lasting memory and an icon; not just for his films, but the essence he cultured. The fact that the martial arts world chooses to ignore this point and proclaim him (superficially) as the father of Mixed Martial Arts proves that his "vehicle" has been well and truly mis-understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
If you have ever read Tao of Jeet Kune Do, you basically have to read the Tao te Ching to get a better understanding of it.
I agree with this entirely. The Tao Te Ching is important to understanding the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, but more so to understand Jeet Kune Do itself - and more so to understand reality, in which both we and Jeet Kune Do exist...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Lee once said "When Jeet Kune Do becomes a martial art then it has failed in its purpose."
I have never seen this quote before - do you have a reference for it? Feel free to PM me since this particular quote would be particularly useful to me.
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
Asside form the fact that he partook in canibus, I think Bruce Lee was probably one of the BEST martial artists of his time. OF HIS TIME! Were there better ones in the past? Yes...there were. Have there been better ones since? Yes. But I would have LOVED to have been bale to afford to train with him.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
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I love to see the arguements about martial arts being an "art" but no one expressing it as an art because they are using formula passed on by others. I think that many people forget that the training of the formula...the concepts and phylosophies of martial arts are necessary to achieving the artist part of it. Much like a musician, painter, or sculptor must study the basics and sciences of thier prefered art form before they are capable of producing great works on thier own, so must a martial artist do the same. However, many, many, martial artist want to skip this step or believe they have a much greater understanding of the medium than they actually do. Then you get instances akin to a painter producing kinder garden quality finger paintings and thinking they are master quality works.
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