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General Martial ArtsDiscuss General Martial Arts here
1If they are trained to fight standing up and do not train for the ground why would anyone assume they want to take the fight to the ground? 2 Why would they take a fight out of their comfort level? 3 Especially against an opponent that may have ground fighting skills?
1- But, who says they don't have those skills. There is a difference between traditional karate and neo-traditional sport karate. Traditional karate is based on being a combat art and fighting to win, those many karate systems have grappling intermixed. Same as all, judo, jujutsu, aikijujutsu, maybe even aikido (I don't know there), Okinawan Karate, and several other systems have grappling.
The issue is that sport karate schools prevail in the market and as such train according to sport rules, which don't allow grappling. I remember getting DQ from a karate tournament when I was 8 for using a throw. Much as I said before in this thread there is traditional combat based martial arts and new-age traditional martial art that claim a tradition but neither live upto the spirit or that tradition or structure of that the tradition they claim.
2- I teach street based self-defense class. So I have to teach fighting at all levels and ranges. I tell students no to take a fight to the ground but if you have to go to the ground its better to take someone there then be taken there. In a streetfight a simple fall can be a fight ender, a takedown or throw can be serious if not lethal.
So why take a fight to the ground? Because either you no other choice or you simply feel the need to for whatever reason. There is unique saying that when you believe something your strength it becomes your weakness. Back when I had that incident with a West Virginia State Trooper, who are taught BJJ and submission grappling to aid in their arrests. I let the cop take to the ground and he assumed "the advantage" was his because he didn't know what I knew. When we went to the ground, I stayed calm and allowed him be as technical as he wished controlling him through knowing where his technical game plan was headed.
Comfort zones are crutches, the first UFC proved that easily enough, when sport based strikers panic when they were taken from their "comfort zones." If I can throw off your game plan or better yet manipulate your game plan for being on the ground your comfort zone just became very uncomfortable. More so, if you retreat to a stand up fight and you aren't prepared for it you lose regardless.
3- Everyone should have basic groundfighting skills, most MAs teach them. Even the TMAs, well the real ones anyway. Sorry to say this but most TMA artists don't like point sparring sport based psuedo-TMAs either. Before BJJ became big there was a huge debate over could a karate man beat a judo man. The problem with the debate was that true judo had strikes and true karate had grappling. More so its just an arguement carried over from the boxer Vs a wrestler arguement.
Now if we are talking solely sport karate (which I stated is not a true TMA or true karate) or sport judo (again not true judo or a true TMA compared to true kodokan judo) then without a doubt they are at a serious disadvantage at any range. Most true TMAs focus on combat survival and so are taught to function at all ranges, perhaps favoring one range over another but still generally at all ranges.
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You said they didnt have those skills which is why I questioned your post.
Here is what you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
"I'm sorry I just find it amusing to assume that just because TMAs don't cater to grappling and groundfighting specifically; notable exceptions to Judo, Jujitsu, Aikijujutsu depending on the school and a few other systems, that a TMA does not want to go to the ground."
What you are saying is that they dont have those skills because they havent trained them except for the few exception arts you pointed out. So you said they dont have those skills. That was why I questioned it.
Are you saying that sparring doesnt help you? So if fighting against resistance and learning how to use your move against a fully resisting partner doesnt help, then please explain how one steps and katas would? What you are saying isnt making any sense unless I am just reading it wrong.
Also, what are the purpose of one steps and katas if you cant use any of those moves against a fully resisting partner? The only purpose I can think of is a false sense of security
I never said sparring doesn't help; please don't misquote me, I said SPARRING IS NOT FIGHTING. Sparring has its uses and his its pros and cons. One such weakness is that it doesn't prepare you for a street fight or mugging. You know an attack is coming, you do not have worry about unfair odds or situation escelating. You can argue that a full resisting opponent is paramont to learning to apply a technique; I see no arguement there. But do not confuse a sport with real combat and do not assume that skill gives you any advantage in the street that can not be taken away.
As for Kata; kata in the since of solo practice forms are an exercise; think tae-bo with combative intent. As for one step sparring if you go back and read the first page of this thread I explain what I'm saying now. One step and Three step sparring allow a student to safely practice potentally dangerious strikes against against a simulated human target.
Kata in a since of a practice form with a non-resisting opponent, such as in classical jujutsu, those kata are practiced with no resistance to familiarize the student, then with partial resistance and then with full resistance in randori. The goal of which is much like 1 steps in that allows a student to see the proper execute of technques and eventually against a full resistant opponent. The focus is first on form (knowing how to apply the technique), learning to set up for the technique and eventually perfecting the technique against an opponent.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
This is not even a question... On Friday we had one of our guys fight a 2nd Degree BB in TKD in a MMA fight. He didn't get off one punch or kick he was picked up slammed on the matt. His guard was past and he got hit in the head until he verbally submitted. After the fight he got rushed to the hosital.
As far as someone saying there fight would never go to the ground your on drugs!! At least 70% of all fights end up on the ground and trust me your sprawl isn't that good. No TMA is going to help your more then a MMA school which shows Muay Thai, Wrestling, Jiu Jitsu and Boxing.
Sorry all your TMA fans... I will post the fight wants I get it and you can try to defend him getting his A--Kicked!
And Football players crush Basketball players when playing football. Big ****ing Whoop.
Your boy crushed a guy that doesnt even train in those ranges of fighting nor with those rules. How in the world could you be proud of that? No one would be surprised if a BJJ guy entered a full contact TKD tournament and got knocked out. He doesnt train for that environment or those rules. ***EDIT...if this guy actually trained for MMA and was not a TKD only fighter then ignore all of the above.
But I will say this the 2nd degree was naive and stupid for thinking standup alone would work. It works if you can defend the take down or submissions if you get taken down. But damn to rely on that alone is asinine to say the least and I cant blame your boy for beating the **** out him since he needed to learn a lesson.
__________________ The name means...No matter how many times you cut him, he will never fall. My soul cutter has no name, it is merely a tool.
I'll Still Kill!
Even the best of men are capable of the most disgusting evil. Just as the most evil man is capable of showing kindness.
Do not be fooled into thinking your enemy's sin is worse than yours, or that your's is better than his.
You said they didnt have those skills which is why I questioned your post.
Here is what you said
What you are saying is that they dont have those skills because they havent trained them except for the few exception arts you pointed out. So you said they dont have those skills. That was why I questioned it.
Again I ask you please stop re-inventing what I said.
You even quoted me;
"I'm sorry I just find it amusing to assume that just because TMAs don't cater to grappling and groundfighting specifically; notable exceptions to Judo, Jujitsu, Aikijujutsu depending on the school and a few other systems, that a TMA does not want to go to the ground."
The words "ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE TMAs DON'T CATER TO GRAPPLING AND GROUNDFIGHTING SPECIFICALLY" imply that not all TMAs are focused on grappling, so called Striking Arts do contain grappling they just don't focus on it extensively. But, again I've already addressed this point ealier.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
At least 70% of all fights end up on the ground and trust me your sprawl isn't that good.
Where do you get this number from? I've been in many fights, and only one went to the ground. The only reason it went to the ground is that there were 7 or 8 guys on me. I had no choice but to go down because they rushed me. HOWEVER the safest place in that instance IS the bottom of the pile IN MY OPINION. I would say that in the RING, yes, most fights will end up on the ground. On the street though, it's a bit different.
I would say that in the RING, yes, most fights will end up on the ground. On the street though, it's a bit different.
I agree, there is not %. fights go where the fighters take them. I have seen big guys end fights in one punch and I have seen wrestlers take guys of all sizes down and destroy them. it depends on a lot of factors where the fight goes.
One point to remember though is that the Ring is the closest we have to the street. We like to point out that the ring is so much different than the street. Of course there are no weapons and multiple opponents. but really, I would be fighting no different in the ring or street and I think many people would do that same and that its somewhat naive to think otherwise. I have witnessed more than my share of fights on the street and I havent seen anything that couldnt have been done on the ring...except for weapons and mult opponents. And the weapons I have seen were socks with pool balls in them. And the mult opponents I know of were people getting straight jumped with no chance to run or anything.
Thats what I'm screaming. Anyone can do one steps and kata. But its going to take way more effort to defend a real strike whether on the street or in a full contact matchup.
Oh and Draven the adrenaline response is something people should get used to as it tends to be different than the ho hum feeling of practice.
I'm not saying anyone can't do one steps and kata, they are exercises and stages of learning; ultimately they end in sparring or at least should. Yes it takes more effort to defend a punch as opposed to just simulating combat. But, the idea of simulating combat (1 & 3 step starring drills) is to simulate combat, kata is an exercise it nothing more then tae-bo against a imaginery opponent.
As far as adrinaline response goes; adrinaline dumbs go away with experience. Constant adrinoline surges reduce the amount adrenaline in your system. After a while adrenaline becomes the ho hum feeling of practice; you can only keep an adrenaline rush for 30 minutes and then you go all crack head when coming down from it.
So yes, while triggering an adrinaline rush is key there are allot of people over estimate the power of that rush. Also if someone is in a controlled safe environment and they know this; unless your doing something to simulate an uncontrolled environment, they may not get such a rush.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john55
I agree, there is not %. fights go where the fighters take them. I have seen big guys end fights in one punch and I have seen wrestlers take guys of all sizes down and destroy them. it depends on a lot of factors where the fight goes.
One point to remember though is that the Ring is the closest we have to the street. We like to point out that the ring is so much different than the street. Of course there are no weapons and multiple opponents. but really, I would be fighting no different in the ring or street and I think many people would do that same and that its somewhat naive to think otherwise. I have witnessed more than my share of fights on the street and I havent seen anything that couldnt have been done on the ring...except for weapons and mult opponents. And the weapons I have seen were socks with pool balls in them. And the mult opponents I know of were people getting straight jumped with no chance to run or anything.
Thinking the ring is no different from the street is niave. If you have seen multiple fights where nothing was done that wouldn't have been legal in the ring, then you haven't seen many real fights. Yes MMA training would help with street defense because of the resistance in training. However, I mentioned a few things in a previous post that do change once the combat goes to slef-defense instead of sport. You haven't addresed any of those things.
I'm not saying anyone can't do one steps and kata, they are exercises and stages of learning; ultimately they end in sparring or at least should. Yes it takes more effort to defend a punch as opposed to just simulating combat. But, the idea of simulating combat (1 & 3 step starring drills) is to simulate combat, kata is an exercise it nothing more then tae-bo against a imaginery opponent.
As far as adrinaline response goes; adrinaline dumbs go away with experience. Constant adrinoline surges reduce the amount adrenaline in your system. After a while adrenaline becomes the ho hum feeling of practice; you can only keep an adrenaline rush for 30 minutes and then you go all crack head when coming down from it.
So yes, while triggering an adrinaline rush is key there are allot of people over estimate the power of that rush. Also if someone is in a controlled safe environment and they know this; unless your doing something to simulate an uncontrolled environment, they may not get such a rush.
You got the jist of what I was talking about but not all of it. I wasnt saying the rush enhances anything. I was saying that it was going to affect the fighter when it hits if the fighter hasnt felt it in practice.
I had sparred against many higher ranked belts than me. I'm a yellow belt in TKD, granted I havent tested in a year for one reason or another, but I have sparred against lots of red and 1st degree black belts. None sparked an adrenaline response. I didnt feel it until about a month and half ago when I sparred against a super intense 4th degree. It was a very different ordeal. If that match were for points I def would have lost and had it been full contact I prob would have been KOd.
I'm just saying you should hit that rush at some point in practice cuz its going to hit when you have intense fight or match or something along those lines, and I'd imagine a negative effect if that were the first time.
***EDIT...^^^ which is exactly what youre second article said. So I guess we actually agree.
__________________ The name means...No matter how many times you cut him, he will never fall. My soul cutter has no name, it is merely a tool.
I'll Still Kill!
Even the best of men are capable of the most disgusting evil. Just as the most evil man is capable of showing kindness.
Do not be fooled into thinking your enemy's sin is worse than yours, or that your's is better than his.
You got the jist of what I was talking about but not all of it. I wasnt saying the rush enhances anything. I was saying that it was going to affect the fighter when it hits if the fighter hasnt felt it in practice.
I had sparred against many higher ranked belts than me. I'm a yellow belt in TKD, granted I havent tested in a year for one reason or another, but I have sparred against lots of red and 1st degree black belts. None sparked an adrenaline response. I didnt feel it until about a month and half ago when I sparred against a super intense 4th degree. It was a very different ordeal. If that match were for points I def would have lost and had it been full contact I prob would have been KOd.
I'm just saying you should hit that rush at some point in practice cuz its going to hit when you have intense fight or match or something along those lines, and I'd imagine a negative effect if that were the first time.
***EDIT...^^^ which is exactly what youre second article said. So I guess we actually agree.
With this I agree, I thought you meant constant adrinaline based conditioninging. My mistake...
But I would also like to recomend reading the book On Killing and On Fighting by ret. Col Dave Grossman. In the book on killing he talks about killing at multiple ranges, he also talks about an experiment with a karate instructor who taught a method of killing by punching the fingers through the eyes. This was done by taping oranges over the eyes and having the students punch the finger through the friut while the other guy screams mock agony.
This tromatized more then a few students, also a good example of why one steps are applied. In modern warfare soldiers are conditioned to fire on human shapped targets, because under pressure or when confused they will revert to past experience if the environment/present experience reflects even losely said past expierence.
Based on that is the roots of those 1 and 3 step exercises, they create a similar pattern of repetitive situations. Thus when adrenaline hits the mind as a mental image to guide it through confusion and panic. Those exercises have more to do with mental conditioning then skills training.
You also have to consider that those methods of training were used before the invention of mats and pads. Its not so much that those methods are effective on their own, they are stages of training and conditioning designed primarily for children and young adults (17 to 21) are prepatory to real combat and application.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
This is not even a question... On Friday we had one of our guys fight a 2nd Degree BB in TKD in a MMA fight. He didn't get off one punch or kick he was picked up slammed on the matt. His guard was past and he got hit in the head until he verbally submitted. After the fight he got rushed to the hosital.
As far as someone saying there fight would never go to the ground your on drugs!! At least 70% of all fights end up on the ground and trust me your sprawl isn't that good. No TMA is going to help your more then a MMA school which shows Muay Thai, Wrestling, Jiu Jitsu and Boxing.
Sorry all your TMA fans... I will post the fight wants I get it and you can try to defend him getting his A--Kicked!
TMA fighter fought MMA fighter in MMA match. Results not very surprised.
How about MMA fighter fighting TMA fighter in TMA match with TMA rules?
Thinking the ring is no different from the street is niave. If you have seen multiple fights where nothing was done that wouldn't have been legal in the ring, then you haven't seen many real fights. Yes MMA training would help with street defense because of the resistance in training. However, I mentioned a few things in a previous post that do change once the combat goes to slef-defense instead of sport. You haven't addresed any of those things.
that is not what I am saying. I am saying the ring is the closest we can come to the street, so if you cant handle yourself in the ring, how do you think you will be able to handle yourself in the street?
We can keep arguing these points all day long. When it comes down to it, we have tons and tons of example fights on video where there were no rules and we have seen what styles of fighting win those fights. I mean how can you argue that the street is different than those when there were no rules? And yes the weapon and multiple attacker argument is there and yes no styles will work against them.
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My view point is coming from the opposite direction on this. Just because you can fight in a sport, even one as rough and tumble and as MMA, does not mean you will be ready for self-defence. It doesn't mean a MMA person wouldn't be able to defense themself, but because a person studies MMA in no way gaurantees a person is well prepared.
Good Fighter or Good Self Defence?
I'll Still Kill!
The only reason it went to the ground is that there were 7 or 8 guys on me. I had no choice but to go down because they rushed me. HOWEVER the safest place in that instance IS the bottom of the pile IN MY OPINION. I would say that in the RING, yes, most fights will end up on the ground. On the street though, it's a bit different.
