Cutting Weight for a fight...

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

Actually Joe, it's not the same. You see, lifting every day is a semi-perminant thing. It develops the muscles over a long period of time, and they stay around for a long period of time even after you stop lifting. The same could be said for stretching. If you have a stretching machine, you are no better off than one who doesn't. Ask Bill Wallace. I trained with him once, and he said when he was younger, he didn't use them. He said he simply stretched while in his off time because he didn't like to waste time. Also, stretching to become more flexible is also a thing which is semi-perminant. I know a woman who is in excess of 300 lbs...but because of her TKD training before she had thyroid problems, she can still do the splits.

Cutting weight is temporary. You gain it back within a day or two.

Okay, so your argument is that since it's temporary it's cheating? So the idea here would be that anything done in a temporary fashion in order to fight "better" is cheating?

So following in that notion, would you say the following things are cheating as well:

- Putting vaseline on your face
- Carb loading
- Warming up
- Drinking water during rounds
- Using hand wraps

All of these things are done right before and sometimes during a fight in order to give slight advantages or to make things easier/better for the fighter and are temporary.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

So then would you say someone who is lifting weights everyday to get more muscle than the would normally have is cheating? What about people who buy stretching machines to increase their flexibility. What about people that eat certain foods or diet so they have more energy.

Cutting weight is no different than any of the things I've listed above. If you are able to withstand the process of cutting, which is hard to do, then you deserve the opportunity to compete at that weight. No different than putting the time in the gym to add muscle. If you have the drive and dedication to do it, then good for you. You have an advantage over those who can't.

Dead on!!

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

Actually Joe, it's not the same. You see, lifting every day is a semi-perminant thing. It develops the muscles over a long period of time, and they stay around for a long period of time even after you stop lifting. The same could be said for stretching. If you have a stretching machine, you are no better off than one who doesn't. Ask Bill Wallace. I trained with him once, and he said when he was younger, he didn't use them. He said he simply stretched while in his off time because he didn't like to waste time. Also, stretching to become more flexible is also a thing which is semi-perminant. I know a woman who is in excess of 300 lbs...but because of her TKD training before she had thyroid problems, she can still do the splits.

Cutting weight is temporary. You gain it back within a day or two.

No they are all temporary things. If I could gain muscle mass and then never do anything again to keep it then it would be permanent but, I have to continue to lift diet and so on to keep my gains. Same with stretching, stop stretching for a year and then tell me if you can still do the splits.

To compete at a high level you need your body to perform at a high level. Dumping the excess only makes sense, you also get the benefits from fasting which are awesome. To compete in a light contact tournament you don't need to cut weight because no one is going to wrestle you or try to knock you out. To compete in either wrestling grappling or MMA you need to be at your physical best.

Originally Posted by drallig9399

Wow I thought the guys on Ult Fighter were exaggerating but I guess not. I dont think I could be a cutter. I dont think I have the testicular fortitude ( to quote Mankind/Dude Love) to go through that process. It seems like its worse than the other training you have to do combined.

No it totally sucks but, it is required at certain levels of competition.

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

Trust me, cutting is no joke. I have a lot of respect for the guys who do it, but...I won't do it,or advise it to my students. A couple pounds, 1-3...maybe a little harder workout, but not 15 or 20.

P*ssy

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

Are there reprecussions? Like do you have to do it perfectly to not lose strength. Is the process going to take away from your conditioning?

Does anyone know what A. Silva's walking around weight is? And any thoughts on his moving up to the next weight class for his upcoming fight? I think I heard he was doing that.

[Gambatte Karate]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Okay, so your argument is that since it's temporary it's cheating? So the idea here would be that anything done in a temporary fashion in order to fight "better" is cheating?

So following in that notion, would you say the following things are cheating as well:

- Putting vaseline on your face
- Carb loading
- Warming up
- Drinking water during rounds
- Using hand wraps

All of these things are done right before and sometimes during a fight in order to give slight advantages or to make things easier/better for the fighter and are temporary.

All the things you mentioned here are for the protection of the fighters body. Cutting weight is not. Cutting weight is just so you can fight someone smaller in my opinion.


What you're missing here Joe, is that these are just MY opinions. Darn multi-quote is owning me again today....

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

All the things you mentioned here are for the protection of the fighters body. Cutting weight is not. Cutting weight is just so you can fight someone smaller in my opinion.


What you're missing here Joe, is that these are just MY opinions. Darn multi-quote is owning me again today....

I understand that it's your opinion, I'm just trying to understand the logic because it's seems a bit flawed is all. But maybe I'm wrong, I believe in seeing how the logic flows to determine who is closest.

On that note..

Not all of the things I mentioned are to protect the fighter, actually. In face, none of them are. If I had said "wear a cup" or "use a mouthiece" that would be different.

Vaseline is used to make the gloves slip off the face a bit, preventing a cut. And a cut stops a fight so it's an advantage.

Carb loading is done in order to have enough glycogen reserves in order to be able to perform anaerobically for as long as possible. Not necessary for a fighter's health.

Warming up prevents hyper ventilation and gets the blood moving to the larger muscle groups in preparation for exercise. Doesn't protect the fighter at all, it simply allows him to perform longer.

Drinking water during rounds is done to replenish any potential water loss during sweating for optimal performance. A fighter wouldn't be completely dehydrated from a 25 minute fight so it's not a health concern. It's about peak performance.

Hand wraps are not a necessity in most organizations, they are at the fighters discretion to use. And since they are an additional barrier to protect the hand and wrist from being broken throwing puches, it is a method for allowing a fighter to throw more and harder punches during a fight. Without the gloves and hand wraps his hand would break very quickly. It's a trick.

[Gambatte Karate]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

No they are all temporary things. If I could gain muscle mass and then never do anything again to keep it then it would be permanent but, I have to continue to lift diet and so on to keep my gains. Same with stretching, stop stretching for a year and then tell me if you can still do the splits.

As I said, they are semi-perminant Basicly, it takes a LONG time to gain, and a long time to loose them. If you lift for over a year and gain the benifits from lifting and then stop cold turkey, you will still have the benifits of the lifting for at least 6 months afterward. If you cut back on lifting a bit, you still keep the benifits. Semi-perminant. Once you achieve it, it doesn't take much to keep it.

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

To compete at a high level you need your body to perform at a high level. Dumping the excess only makes sense, you also get the benefits from fasting which are awesome. To compete in a light contact tournament you don't need to cut weight because no one is going to wrestle you or try to knock you out. To compete in either wrestling grappling or MMA you need to be at your physical best.

And I don't think that shocking your body up to and including the night before the fight is the best thing to do to make your body perform at it's physical best.

I would also like to point out that I have 2 yrs of boxing exp, and never once cut weight then either. I would say that people were hitting pretty hard and trying to knock me out then.

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

No it totally sucks but, it is required at certain levels of competition.

I didn't know you were required to do it. I thought it was voluntary...

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

P*ssy

Yeah, I know....I like it a lot too.



Anyway, I have expressed my OPINIONS here, and will not continue on an arguement about it. Afterall, it doesn't matter what I think about it. Only what the individual fighter thinks about it.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by drallig9399

Are there reprecussions? Like do you have to do it perfectly to not lose strength. Is the process going to take away from your conditioning?

Does anyone know what A. Silva's walking around weight is? And any thoughts on his moving up to the next weight class for his upcoming fight? I think I heard he was doing that.

No not at all. You're removing the water weight from your body which actually makes your muscles swell. This is the same reason body builders gorge them selves on sugar before a show because it removes the water and makes the muscle swell and appear larger. I'm not increasing my physical activity really I'm just making myself sweat more during it.

Anderson walks at about 195 - 210 from what I understand. light heavy is his natural weight

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

As I said, they are semi-perminant Basicly, it takes a LONG time to gain, and a long time to loose them. If you lift for over a year and gain the benifits from lifting and then stop cold turkey, you will still have the benifits of the lifting for at least 6 months afterward. If you cut back on lifting a bit, you still keep the benifits. Semi-perminant. Once you achieve it, it doesn't take much to keep it.

And I don't think that shocking your body up to and including the night before the fight is the best thing to do to make your body perform at it's physical best.

I would also like to point out that I have 2 yrs of boxing exp, and never once cut weight then either. I would say that people were hitting pretty hard and trying to knock me out then.

I didn't cut for boxing either. No one was wrestling me


I didn't know you were required to do it. I thought it was voluntary...

I require myself to be the best I can be.

Yeah, I know....I like it a lot too.

Better come back is you are what you eat



Anyway, I have expressed my OPINIONS here, and will not continue on an arguement about it. Afterall, it doesn't matter what I think about it. Only what the individual fighter thinks about it.I agree.

Stuff stuff and stuff, I think cutting is very important.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

As I said, they are semi-perminant Basicly, it takes a LONG time to gain, and a long time to loose them. If you lift for over a year and gain the benifits from lifting and then stop cold turkey, you will still have the benifits of the lifting for at least 6 months afterward. If you cut back on lifting a bit, you still keep the benifits. Semi-perminant. Once you achieve it, it doesn't take much to keep it.

Incorrect, actually. Depending on the situation, you can lose muscle within weeks if you're not using it.

Try this for a test. Put one leg in a brace for two weeks and don't walk on it, but keep using the other one. Then measure the circumference of the two legs and notice the difference.

[Gambatte Karate]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I understand that it's your opinion, I'm just trying to understand the logic because it's seems a bit flawed is all. But maybe I'm wrong, I believe in seeing how the logic flows to determine who is closest.

On that note..

Not all of the things I mentioned are to protect the fighter, actually. In face, none of them are. If I had said "wear a cup" or "use a mouthiece" that would be different.

Vaseline is used to make the gloves slip off the face a bit, preventing a cut. And a cut stops a fight so it's an advantage.

Carb loading is done in order to have enough glycogen reserves in order to be able to perform anaerobically for as long as possible. Not necessary for a fighter's health.

Warming up prevents hyper ventilation and gets the blood moving to the larger muscle groups in preparation for exercise. Doesn't protect the fighter at all, it simply allows him to perform longer.

Drinking water during rounds is done to replenish any potential water loss during sweating for optimal performance. A fighter wouldn't be completely dehydrated from a 25 minute fight so it's not a health concern. It's about peak performance.

Hand wraps are not a necessity in most organizations, they are at the fighters discretion to use. And since they are an additional barrier to protect the hand and wrist from being broken throwing puches, it is a method for allowing a fighter to throw more and harder punches during a fight. Without the gloves and hand wraps his hand would break very quickly. It's a trick.

I see your views better now Joe. We are looking at it from two different perspectives. You see, I'll address your list below:

1: Vaseline-I see it as being used to protect the fighter from injury...i.e. cuts.

2: Carb loading-I never knew what exactly it was for other than to give the person extra energy. Basicly what you said. Extra energy helps to protect the fighter a bit, but yes, I can see your point here.

3: Warming up helps to prevent injury to an otherwise unprepared muscle.

4: Drinking water between rounds is minimal at best. In fact, when in boxing, I was instructed to simply rinse and spit. (I always kept just a little for myself though ) LOL

5: Hand wraps - I loved this one. you said it was for their protection yourself. If they didn't have them, they stand a higher chance of breaking something.



I do see your points though, and they are valid, but I still view cutting as cheating by trying to get into a lighter weight class so you can fight a smaller person.

[Gambatte Karate]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Stuff stuff and stuff, I think cutting is very important.

I didn't want to say "I am what I eat" because this is still a somewhat family website. LOL I knew about that one and it's played out a bit...but yeah....

[Sake Sipper]

People cut weight because as has been pointed out, it does give you an advantage. If you want to win you'll exploit any advantage and do whatever you can.


And yes, it sucks. I regularly cut 22+ lbs back in the college days. Sucked? Yes. Worth it? Yes.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

5: Hand wraps - I loved this one. you said it was for their protection yourself. If they didn't have them, they stand a higher chance of breaking something..

But you missed the overall point, the reason you don't want to break your hand is not for safety reasons. It's so you can hit your opponent longer and harder.

The first person to use gloves in MMA was Tank Abbott, he wanted to make sure he could pound dudes all day long without having to stop.

If you watch old school NHB and Vale Tudo matches you can tell when an opponent has broken his hand because he switches his punches. It made it harder to win.

[Gambatte Karate]

I prefer to fight people that are MY weight normally, not someone who is normally 195 or 200 and cut so they could fight at 180. Hell, If I cut like you guys do, I could fight at the 160 range and possibly the 155 range...at 6'4" is it really fair? I personally don't think so. Would it give me the advantage? As long as it stayed a stand up fight, most likely. Would I do it? Not a chance. I want to win fair, not because I utilized technicalities to win. For me, in competition, I'm not all about the "w". I'm more about the experience. I've had quite the life so far. I've experienced riding bulls, repelling, crosscountry hiking, deep sea fishing, noodling, small cliff jumping, hang gliding, piloting a plane (even though the actual pilot was right there), "driving" a submarine, raced cars, boxing, and most recently martial arts. I live for the experience guys....And to me, I want to fight someone MY SIZE, not someone larger who just lost weight last night so he could weigh the same as me.


Now, as I stated before, everyone does it, so it DOES even out in that aspect I guess. And maybe living for the experience, and not the "w", is why I'm not a national champion....LOL

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

But you missed the overall point, the reason you don't want to break your hand is not for safety reasons. It's so you can hit your opponent longer and harder.

The first person to use gloves in MMA was Tank Abbott, he wanted to make sure he could pound dudes all day long without having to stop.

If you watch old school NHB and Vale Tudo matches you can tell when an opponent has broken his hand because he switches his punches. It made it harder to win.

Are you serious? The guy weakened himself so he can beat people up for longer? Wow... That's scary.