How often does this happen?

[ladyfighter]

I HATE to tap... but when I'm given the option.. tap out or pass out.. I do eventually tap! It might not be right away... and YES I do get alittle lightheaded and/or dazed & confused first, but atleast I don't look like a goob and start yelling, "mom, just 10 more min.!" OR Worse, pee on myself

Back on topic: Btw, I'd have to agree that the problem was with the ref in this situation!!

[JackG]

Originally Posted by grasshopper

sounds like ego to me - to compete is to learn,

and yes - ill have you know I have awful teeth

)

You compete to win , nothing else. there is a big difference between rolling at your club and someone you don't know. I have bad teeth too, bleeding gums aren't going to make me lose a match Defintly a ref problem ... or maybe the kid was just too young to be doing subs to begin with?

[john55]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

I HATE to tap... but when I'm given the option.. tap out or pass out.. I do eventually tap! It might not be right away... and YES I do get alittle lightheaded and/or dazed & confused first, but atleast I don't look like a goob and start yelling, "mom, just 10 more min.!" OR Worse, pee on myself

Dont hate to tap in practice though as its vital to learning.

[slideyfoot]

Originally Posted by grasshopper

sounds like ego to me - to compete is to learn, if you refuse to learn then more fool you. Unless you learn by going to sleep

No: to train in class is to learn, to compete is to test what you've learned.

Great thread about tapping (in class, where I absolutely agree you need to concentrate on improving your technique rather pointlessly straining) here, while for medical information on chokes and the whole peeing yourself thing, see the Fightworks Podcast.

[grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Here we go again....someone who has never competed in a grappling tournament in their life telling me what I need to do in one.

Thanks grasshopper for feeling the need to critique my personality, skills, and purpose all in one post.

When you have some grappling tournaments under your belt I will take what you have to say a little more seriously. Until then, go back to kicking break-away boards and leave the submission skills to those of us who know.

*EDITED*

I want to add another thing here.

The purpose of competing is to try to win. The purpose of training for competition is to learn, but when you step out on the mats you had better be trying to win.

grasshopper, have you ever competed in a martial arts tournament of any kind?

chillout mate - it wasnt a personal attack, all im saying is that when I grapple guys I dont know id rather tap than pass out. there was nothing more to it than that, dont be so defensive. How would you think what I wrote was directed at you?

I have never kicked a break away board in my life, yet how can you assume I have no submission skills?

agreeably I have been to and watched many tournaments, but have not competed, that said I have been to an open mat before and fought with guys I don't know, so the experience of fighting another martial artist I have never seen before isnt new to me.

granted though ive not competed, which is fair enough this is an experince I lack in. but I dont understand how this suggests that people who compete know submission better than those that dont, and I dont know how this suggests that I spend my time kicking boards.

whenever I fight another martial artsit I am there to learn, if and when I do compete I will be there to learn and to learn alone, victory to me means little, that is my opinion.

tell me joemo how many taijutsu classes have you been too? you seem to have a view of the art I study based on the fact that we dont compete, thats a little stereotypical isnt it?

[slideyfoot]

Originally Posted by grasshopper

all im saying is that when I grapple guys I dont know id rather tap than pass out. [...]

agreeably I have been to and watched many tournaments, but have not competed, that said I have been to an open mat before and fought with guys I don't know, so the experience of fighting another martial artist I have never seen before isnt new to me.

[...]

whenever I fight another martial artsit I am there to learn, if and when I do compete I will be there to learn and to learn alone, victory to me means little, that is my opinion.

There is a massive difference between competing and just sparring somebody you've not met before. You appear to be equating the two: they are not the same. I've been to many open mats myself (i.e., these, including a taijutsu guy at this one) and have also competed, albeit only once. So I speak from experience (admittedly limited) when I say they are not the same at all.

Competing requires an entirely different mindset to sparring in class (of which an open mat is effectively another form, as its just informal sparring, not an all-out tournament): in competition, you are trying to win. That is in direct contrast to class, where you are there to learn, trying out new things, refining what you know, experimenting.

[grasshopper]

Originally Posted by slideyfoot

There is a massive difference between competing and just sparring somebody you've not met before. You appear to be equating the two: they are not the same. I've been to many open mats myself (i.e., these, including a taijutsu guy at this one) and have also competed, albeit only once. So I speak from experience (admittedly limited) when I say they are not the same at all.

Competing requires an entirely different mindset to sparring in class (of which an open mat is effectively another form, as its just informal sparring, not an all-out tournament): in competition, you are trying to win. That is in direct contrast to class, where you are there to learn, trying out new things, refining what you know, experimenting.

ok, thats fair I can only speak from one side of the fence on this one as competition is never something ive pursued.

but if someone has you in a good choke, why not just tap out? you loose nothing.

[damen]

if you tap, you are giving up - you are potentially missing out on a possible escape
if you tap, you'll never know if you could have gotten out of it

[slideyfoot]

Originally Posted by grasshopper

but if someone has you in a good choke, why not just tap out? you loose nothing.

Not true if you're competing: you don't lose nothing, you lose the match. When somebody is looking to win, they're only going to tap at the very last minute, especially with chokes.

Imagine you're in a competition. You've been dominating the match, you're about to win on points...but your opponent catches you in a choke in the closing moments of the match.

Are you going to tap, or are you going to tough it out to get the win?

[TRIANGLEFROMGUARD]

For those who've never competed I think it's a bit hard to understand, it's not just like sparring it is about winning. If you're not trying to win then even if you're at tournament you're not competing.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by grasshopper

chillout mate - it wasnt a personal attack, all im saying is that when I grapple guys I dont know id rather tap than pass out. there was nothing more to it than that, dont be so defensive. How would you think what I wrote was directed at you?

I have never kicked a break away board in my life, yet how can you assume I have no submission skills?

agreeably I have been to and watched many tournaments, but have not competed, that said I have been to an open mat before and fought with guys I don't know, so the experience of fighting another martial artist I have never seen before isnt new to me.

granted though ive not competed, which is fair enough this is an experince I lack in. but I dont understand how this suggests that people who compete know submission better than those that dont, and I dont know how this suggests that I spend my time kicking boards.

whenever I fight another martial artsit I am there to learn, if and when I do compete I will be there to learn and to learn alone, victory to me means little, that is my opinion.

tell me joemo how many taijutsu classes have you been too? you seem to have a view of the art I study based on the fact that we dont compete, thats a little stereotypical isnt it?

Nice.

So, you QUOTE me, say I have an ego then proceed to tell me what the point of competing is and when I respond back negatively now I'm the one who needs to chillout because I'm being defensive?

Way to back out of that one. If you're going to try to slam me, at least stick with it in your argument, don't act like you weren't coming at me because you were.

Originally Posted by grasshopper

ok, thats fair I can only speak from one side of the fence on this one as competition is never something ive pursued.

but if someone has you in a good choke, why not just tap out? you loose nothing.

Let me tell YOU a little bit about competing from MY experience.

When I attended the 2004 Pan American games to compete in the Purple Belt division, the registration cost me somewhere around $80. The round trip flight from DC to Los Angeles, CA cost about $650. Three days hotel was probably a good $350. I cut weight for 2 weeks, made it to about 158 (I walk around about 175). I trained two, three, sometimes 4 times a day for about 2 months to prepare. I worked with top level bjj competitors and got manhandled by them for months getting ready. I prepared myself mentally and physically in every way imagineable.

Once you've been through something like that, then you can come back and talk to me about what the purpose of competing is and who loses what when they tap without trying EVERYTHING to get out first.

Let me explain this to you grasshopper so that you can understand:

When you step on the mat to compete you are there representing yourself, your family, your academy, your art and your teammates. You had better NOT give up on that mat until you have given EVERYTHING YOU HAVE. You will NEVER be able to live with yourself if you don't.

If you aren't willing to do that, then don't ever plan to step on that mat.

[WC_Lun]

when I was competing I did not care about winning so much. What I did care about was doing the absolute best I could do and represent kung fu well. Sometimes there were better fighters and getting beat was a learning experience. However, I gave it everyting in the ring because to do anything less would be an insult to my training partners, my instructors, my style, and more importantly myself. That is why you don't tap immediatley when in a choke when competing. No permanant harm is done if you do go to sleep, but there is a lot to lose if you don't try.

Now in practice it is only smart to tap when you know something is locked in. The purpose and intent of what you are doing is completley different than competing.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

when I was competing I did not care about winning so much. What I did care about was doing the absolute best I could do and represent kung fu well. Sometimes there were better fighters and getting beat was a learning experience. However, I gave it everyting in the ring because to do anything less would be an insult to my training partners, my instructors, my style, and more importantly myself. That is why you don't tap immediatley when in a choke when competing. No permanant harm is done if you do go to sleep, but there is a lot to lose if you don't try.

Now in practice it is only smart to tap when you know something is locked in. The purpose and intent of what you are doing is completley different than competing.

This is a good point.

It's NOT about winning...it's about doing your personal best. If you lose to someone technically superior you shake his hand and try to figure out how to beat that person next time. But to lose to someone you are better than because you QUIT...cause you got tired or because you didn't try? This is the whole point of competing...to learn this lesson.

[Amski]

I think the whole issue here is, someone like grasshopper wouldn't compete in any case unless it was simply to have the experience of competing - and wouldn't put themselves in the situation where so much was hanging on a competition and winning a fight. To that end, he wouldn't understand all the mounting costs physically, mentally (and fiscally!) of entering a competition, and why people feel tapping out of a fight is a failure,l because they fight to learn and not to win. It's either their nature of the nature of the MA they study in, and either way it's not a failing, just a difference.
On the other side, people who regularly compete, or compete in this way at least, can't understand why people who train as grasshopper does don't seem to 'care' about losing a bout through tapping - they see it as a defeat, not a learning curve. This is not egotistical of them, it's again either personal or of the art they have learnt, and it's ingraned in them to do everything they possibly can to win or else let themselves/others down. This does not make them sore losers - but they won't accept tapping as a way out of a fight unles they know for sure there's no other option.

It's just a difference, neither side shows a particular strength or weakness, and no-one is wrong. You guys just don't fight the same.

[slideyfoot]

Originally Posted by Amski

To that end, he wouldn't understand all the mounting costs physically, mentally (and fiscally!) of entering a competition, and why people feel tapping out of a fight is a failure,l because they fight to learn and not to win. It's either their nature of the nature of the MA they study in, and either way it's not a failing, just a difference. [...]

On the other side, people who regularly compete, or compete in this way at least, can't understand why people who train as grasshopper does don't seem to 'care' about losing a bout through tapping - they see it as a defeat, not a learning curve.

Gah. Again, NO, it is not that people who compete are somehow incapable of understanding that tapping = learning. The same person can have one mindset for competition and another for class. That is what grasshopper was missing, and unless I've misread your post, you too.

Competition: fight to win. Class: spar to learn. Its very simple.

Obviously you can learn from competing, but thats after the experience, analysing what happened. During the match, you're there to win, so if you can possibly avoid tapping, you will.