Hapkido

[H@pkid0ist]

Remember that Hapkido and Aikido were developed at the same time. Just as TKD was being developed as well. The kicks of HKD are rumored to have been put in by Ji Han Jae. Now all I truly know is that HKD is a creation of multiple people and still changing. As for TKD and HKD kicks, many HKD schools do not kick the same as them either. As a matter of facto, unless the instructor is also a TKD stylist or the HKD being taught has a TKD lineage than it wont have the same way of kicking.

[03youngd]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

If you can learn to use the weapon properly, then by all means learn it. Unfortunatly, a lot of people cannot use the weapon they say they have even mastered. Having an ancestor that used a weapon does not qualify a person to teach the weapon. If it did then it would mean I am qualified to teach ancient Irish, Scottish, German, and Choctaw Indian weapons. What qualifies a person to teach a weapon is being certified by another person that is qualified to teach that weapon.

Here's the thing. When people learn weapons partially, or even worse, teach weapons when they aren't certified to do so, it waters down the art of that weapon. No exceptions, no matter how cool the person thinks the weapon is, no matter how much natural ability the person posseses, no matter what excuse is used. Imagine if your art was taught by a blue or brown belt. Would that be satisfactory to you? For some of us, the dilution of these arts is something we fight against. It might be a losing battle, but hey, we gotta try.

oh i get you now, i think i just misunderstood. yer i agree with you on that, its the same way everyone who studies a martial art has a self proclaimed Grandmaster in it, basicly im on about Mcdojos, and in these cases i totally understand what you mean.

[03youngd]

Originally Posted by H@pkid0ist

Remember that Hapkido and Aikido were developed at the same time. Just as TKD was being developed as well. The kicks of HKD are rumored to have been put in by Ji Han Jae. Now all I truly know is that HKD is a creation of multiple people and still changing. As for TKD and HKD kicks, many HKD schools do not kick the same as them either. As a matter of facto, unless the instructor is also a TKD stylist or the HKD being taught has a TKD lineage than it wont have the same way of kicking.

Traditional Hapkido is centred around circular movements unlike Combat Hapkido, however Hapkido (as an art) was only developed into what is known as Hapkido in the 1950's, therefore it is still a growing art. It is true in a way to say Hapkido was 'developed' at the same time as Aikido but this is only due to the fact it was a mix of different much more traditional Korean martial arts.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by 03youngd

oh i get you now, i think i just misunderstood. yer i agree with you on that, its the same way everyone who studies a martial art has a self proclaimed Grandmaster in it, basicly im on about Mcdojos, and in these cases i totally understand what you mean.

While Mcdojos are indeed a large part of the problem of style dilution, I did not neccesarily mean just McDojos. As I said in an earlier post, I have seen talented [and skilled] martial artist do the same thing. It is the attitude that weapons are an accessary. That they are some reward for getting a certain rank. For systems that weapons are a true part of, the weapons are a part of the system. They are required learning in order to understand the system that they are from. They aren't something added on as an afterthought, or should not be. To learn those weapons seperately from the system is like tearing half the pages out of a book then reading the book and trying to understand everything that is going on. It just isn't going to happen.

[H@pkid0ist]

After working out with a few other HKD stylist lately, I have come to wonder how many people are taught how to use HKD in combat and not just as a series of techniques. I think that many HKD players think that all they do is wait for someone to attack and execute a hand technique. This is not the case. You have to know how to execute the techniques if you are tangled, grappling or defending from a flurry of strikes, ranging from punches, elbow, knees to kicking. Its not just a stand there, execute and defend. That is just not how a fight usually works. Sometimes yes, but not often enough. The guy I was training with thursday night didn't seem to have any idea to execute a technique from anything other than a grab...

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by H@pkid0ist

After working out with a few other HKD stylist lately, I have come to wonder how many people are taught how to use HKD in combat and not just as a series of techniques. I think that many HKD players think that all they do is wait for someone to attack and execute a hand technique. This is not the case. You have to know how to execute the techniques if you are tangled, grappling or defending from a flurry of strikes, ranging from punches, elbow, knees to kicking. Its not just a stand there, execute and defend. That is just not how a fight usually works. Sometimes yes, but not often enough. The guy I was training with thursday night didn't seem to have any idea to execute a technique from anything other than a grab...

So how do you explain all this bad display of Hapkido going on? I myself have come across a lot of Hapkido practicioners, including some Combat Hapkido guys, and frankly I wasn't very impressed either. So what happened? How did the loss of credibility occur in your opinion?

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

So how do you explain all this bad display of Hapkido going on? I myself have come across a lot of Hapkido practicioners, including some Combat Hapkido guys, and frankly I wasn't very impressed either. So what happened? How did the loss of credibility occur in your opinion?

I'd blame a lack of a realistic competition scene, just like with TKD and numerous other arts. There are competitions out there, but the rules are almost overbearing.

[H@pkid0ist]

On top of that is all the watering down, hybridization and mixing with other arts. There are to many people out there who have incomplete training and pass it on as complete knowledge or mix things in with their HKD training cause their training is either incomplete or they just don't have a clue. Example: To many so called HKD masters are actually TKD players that have an incomplete watered down unrealistic idea of what Hapkido really is. I say TKD cause they are the most prevalant people who perpatrate this. When I train with other HKD stylist, especially TKD/HKD ones they don't seem to know a good bit of the techniques and fighting method that is taught standard in the good/real HKD schools I have known.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by H@pkid0ist

On top of that is all the watering down, hybridization and mixing with other arts. There are to many people out there who have incomplete training and pass it on as complete knowledge or mix things in with their HKD training cause their training is either incomplete or they just don't have a clue. Example: To many so called HKD masters are actually TKD players that have an incomplete watered down unrealistic idea of what Hapkido really is. I say TKD cause they are the most prevalant people who perpatrate this. When I train with other HKD stylist, especially TKD/HKD ones they don't seem to know a good bit of the techniques and fighting method that is taught standard in the good/real HKD schools I have known.

Wing Chun has been experiencing this same thing. You've got "masters" that haven't a clue of the underlying concepts that make the system of Wing Chun what it is. The ones that make my eyes roll the most are guys from other systems that mimic a few techniques from Wing Chun, usually the chain punches, then say they teach Wing Chun as part of thier system. Seems this is happening with a lot of martial art systems.

[damen]

lol its a compliment WC_Lun - Wing Chun is just so bad ass that all us other martial artists are jealous! Of course we want to advertise it

(half-serious)

[Joemoplata]

Now maybe you guys can see why we BJJ guys are so passionate about ensuring the highest quality. This is why we always check on people's credentials and lineage and why we rate competition experience so highly. If you can't show that your belt came from someone respectable, you better have some one who will back you or some tournament records handy to prove your skill level. Somehow we need to get back to this mentality in all the other forms out there as well, start demanding accountability out of our community.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by damen

lol its a compliment WC_Lun - Wing Chun is just so bad ass that all us other martial artists are jealous! Of course we want to advertise it

(half-serious)

Funny.

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Now maybe you guys can see why we BJJ guys are so passionate about ensuring the highest quality. This is why we always check on people's credentials and lineage and why we rate competition experience so highly. If you can't show that your belt came from someone respectable, you better have some one who will back you or some tournament records handy to prove your skill level. Somehow we need to get back to this mentality in all the other forms out there as well, start demanding accountability out of our community.

Yeah Joe, I can definitley see where you guys are coming from. I hear a lot of TMA guys say that lineage doesn't matter anymore or that it is over-rated. To me it does matter, to some degree. If you can tell me who your teacher is and who his teacher is it shows me you have pride in what you have learned from them and respect for those teachers. If I recognize those names as masters then added bonus. If you give me some excuse of why you cannot divulge your lineage then it throws off all kinds of alarm bells that scream fraud.

I've also seen a lot of TMA "teachers" that always stand apart from the students and do nothing but critisize what they are doing, calling it instruction. They never physically interact with the students. In my experience this has been due to fear that thier skills will be shown to be lacking. The two magic words that frauds, fakes, and under-skilled instructors fear the most are "show me."

[Chapel]

Its not that TMA lineage is over rated, rather, it is impossible. I could mention a BJJ black belt and odds are Joe or Triangle has met someone who knows him very well. The same is not true with arts that are much bigger because there are just too many people around.

The big fix for my art would be refining the rule of TKD competition to be more inline with boxing rules (except with headgear to prevent bleeding from kicks). Then people will have a much better idea about how fights occur and that they must use a good portion of their strength to do damage instead of just relying on speed of a single move or moving into bad position to score a point (knowing that the fight is stopped afterwards).

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Chapel

Its not that TMA lineage is over rated, rather, it is impossible. I could mention a BJJ black belt and odds are Joe or Triangle has met someone who knows him very well. The same is not true with arts that are much bigger because there are just too many people around.

The big fix for my art would be refining the rule of TKD competition to be more inline with boxing rules (except with headgear to prevent bleeding from kicks). Then people will have a much better idea about how fights occur and that they must use a good portion of their strength to do damage instead of just relying on speed of a single move or moving into bad position to score a point (knowing that the fight is stopped afterwards).

I agree with both points.

As it is right now, when we hear about a person who is claiming to be a Black Belt in BJJ we are diligent in tracking down their information. If nothing can be found, it's not unusual for a "Dojo Storm" to happen where ranked BJJ people will show up to see how good they are truly are. But this will get harder to do as time goes on.

And point sparring is fine and all, but there needs to be a "harder" level of sparring matches that is encouraged and still safe for striking. Organizations like K-1 are great, but that's at the highest level. There needs to be more small sanctioning bodies of competition for more TMA style MAs.

[john55]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Now maybe you guys can see why we BJJ guys are so passionate about ensuring the highest quality. This is why we always check on people's credentials and lineage and why we rate competition experience so highly. If you can't show that your belt came from someone respectable, you better have some one who will back you or some tournament records handy to prove your skill level. Somehow we need to get back to this mentality in all the other forms out there as well, start demanding accountability out of our community.

I think its easier in BJJ to prove your level...at least from what I see because our levels are based on ability to use your moves. Even with less than a year experience, I can tell and see the difference when I roll with a white belt, blue belt, purple belt, brown/black (seem the same to me at this point).

I think the difference with BJJ is that we are going full force a lot, pretty much every practice. Its not competition but even within my own gym we have mock competitions all the time. Plus we roll with a lot of other schools, go to seminars, competitions, etc so we know we are where we should be. And really the only way to get better is mat time, so you cant really fake it. I mean, if I said I was a purple belt and went to any bjj school, they would just laugh at me when their white belts submitted me repeatedly and I couldnt even hang with their blue belts. That same thing cant be said of other arts, because of the way they rank.