Omnivores.....

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

that gets me is that they think that just by eating the way they do they are the epitome of health. These cats dont exercise at all but think their internal system is perfect because they havent been tainted by meat,

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by drallig9399

that gets me is that they think that just by eating the way they do they are the epitome of health. These cats dont exercise at all but think their internal system is perfect because they havent been tainted by meat,

But, see, you're generalizing just like "those cats" are generalizing. When you say they "don't exercise at all," you are lumping all vegetarians together, like every vegetarian and vegan is a couch potato.
My suggestion is, if you want to argue with them about it, when people preach about how great being a vegan is, point out that our eyes face forward, a sign of being a predator. We have pointy canines. Another sign. Our stomachs and the enzymes therein are developed to consume meat. Another sign.
Otherwise, just ignore these people, just like you'd ignore the coked-out guy at the gym who thinks he's the healthiest thing in the world because he can bench some ungodly amount (and will eventually destroy his arms, if his heart doesn't go first). There are those who are annoying in every single grouping of people in the world. Apparently it is hardwired into some people to try to cram their own ideas down other people's throats.

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

If you go back to the start of the thread I was talking specifically about the vegs that I know. All of whom have never done anything but the occasional yoga pose once a blue moon.

One of whom trips me out because since she rarely uses her canines they havent been worn down at all, and she looks like she has fangs, in a human way.

[Spinach]

Yo sirdarksol. Vege`s being preachy when I am trying to eat or I invite them to a dinner party is exactly what I am talking about. People don`t give them **** for not eating meat yet they can`t let me enjoy my venison in peace. They just have to make some, even light remark about it. And if I am kind enough to make a whole vege dinner then it still gets dropped. And if you retort or say anything slightly not in their favor then it usually starts a `friendly` debate. Most people can relate to this situation. Of course there are exceptions. It is a gross generalisation after all. My Aunty has been a vege almost her whole life and doesn`t preach about it. But I feel people like her are the exception rather then the rule.

In regards to the other thing.. I could say alot but instead I have something fo you to read. This is an excellent article.
http://web.archive.org/web/200406022.../courses/diet/
I have bits of this in its originial form but I recently found alot of it together on an unlikly site. Ignore the first little bit and just start reading the article, they have done a serious copy paste job. Be patient and go through all of it. It is well written and thorough.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Spinach

Yo sirdarksol. Vege`s being preachy when I
am trying to eat or I invite them to a dinner party is exactly what I am talking about. People don`t give them **** for not eating meat yet they can`t let me enjoy my venison in peace. They just have to make some, even light remark about it. And if I am kind enough to make a whole vege dinner then it still gets dropped. And if you retort or say anything slightly not in their favor then it usually starts a `friendly` debate. Most people can relate to this situation. Of course there are exceptions. It is a gross generalisation after all. My Aunty has been a vege almost her whole life and doesn`t preach about it. But I feel people like her are the exception rather then the rule.

In regards to the other thing.. I could say alot but instead I have something fo you to read. This is an excellent article.
http://web.archive.org/web/200406022.../courses/diet/
I have bits of this in its originial form but I recently found alot of it together on an unlikly site. Ignore the first little bit and just start reading the article, they have done a serious copy paste job. Be patient and go through all of it. It is well written and thorough.

Your first statement is wrong. So very wrong. I've been on so many forums that have had a discussion like this, and this is the most tame of them all. Most of them are "Why don't they just eat meat? It's stupid of them." My mom and my wife both have met up with very pushy meat eaters.
I understand that you know vegetarians who are pushy and rude. I've known one, too. I also know several meat eaters who are the exact same way. My point was that you are unlikely to know about the majority of people who are vegetarian for the very reason that they do not bring it up. You'd never know my Mom or wife or my friend Cory were vegetarian unless you were in a situation where you had to deal with getting their food, at which point they would respectfully request that you arrange for a meatless option for them. It is because most people are unaware of the majority of vegetarians that creates this thought that most vegetarians are pushy. Most of them are being polite, because they know you don't care about their diet, just like they don't much care about your diet. This is why I entered this discussion, because I was trying to educate people about it.

As far as that article goes, there are bits of good information in there, but it uses bad logic to support its theory. "There has been an increase in the use of vegetable fats in cooking and a decrease in the use of animal fats" and "There has been an increase in heart attack rates" does not mean that "Vegetable fats cause heart attacks and animal fats help prevent them." There are so many changes in this time period. For example, in the 1920's, most world economies were still based on physical labor. It is known that exercise strengthens the heart, which increases the body's resistance to heart attacks.
Another factor that is not figured into this is that, at the beginning of the 1900's, a person who suffered a heart attack was dead most of the time. Medical technology could not save this person. Now, however, a very large number of people who suffer heart attacks survive them. Someone who has had a heart attack is more likely to suffer another. In this way, there is an increase in per capita heart attacks due to the fact that more people are having multiple attacks.
This is the first time in history that it is cheaper to have an extremely high fat diet. Traditionally, it was kings and nobles that had ready access to constant sources of fatty meats. Now, however, it's cheaper to buy a quadruple-stacked burger made with quarter-pound patties than it is to buy a pound of low-fat beef. And the people that I know who have had heart attacks have gone this route, preferring the ease and cheapness of fast food.
These are just a few examples of bad logic that Mr Byrnes uses in his article.
This is not to say that I disagree with everything he says. #1, I believe that processed carbohydrates are indeed a problem. The point that the American average weight started skyrocketing and the point that Coca Cola started using high fructose corn syrup (a more concentrated, more easily converted sugar) are both around the same time.
Likewise, I think that consuming no saturated fat is as bad as consuming too much. However, even Mr Byrnes admits that there are vegetable sources of saturated fats. It requires more work, but it is possible.
Trans fat is an abomination. However, this is a "secret" that the vegetarian community has known about for longer than your average American. If you go to any sort of store that caters to the vegetarian-minded, you will be hard pressed to find much in the way of trans-fats. Rather, trans-fats are used in junk food, because it allows them to keep better on the shelf. Until last year, most fast food restaurants used trans fats in their fryers because it is more shelf-stable than other frying oils. Most packaged crackers and cookies use trans fat because of this, although some companies are learning. (I think Oreo doesn't use trans fat, or they at least have a line of cookies that is trans fat free).

As I said, there are points to the article that are good, but as a whole, it is misguiding.

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

You cant have any pudding if you dont eat your meat!

[Trance]

Strictly speaking, it's the nutrient that's beneficial to the consumer's body. It makes no real difference where the nutrient comes from, be it eggs, meat or fish.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by drallig9399

You cant have any pudding if you dont eat your meat!

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

You. Yes, you...

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

Originally Posted by Trance

Strictly speaking, it's the nutrient that's beneficial to the consumer's body. It makes no real difference where the nutrient comes from, be it eggs, meat or fish.

But thats where it gets dicey. Because people will factor in calories and for some foods you get more proteins, or other nutrients, for less/more calories. So it kind of goes back to efficiency. Like how beans arent complete proteins and you generally have to eat more for the gram intake.

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

You. Yes, you...

I dont know I think you have to ask those Monty Python guys, I think thats were it came from.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by drallig9399

But thats where it gets dicey. Because people will factor in calories and for some foods you get more proteins, or other nutrients, for less/more calories. So it kind of goes back to efficiency. Like how beans arent complete proteins and you generally have to eat more for the gram intake.

Or how eggs, while they have the closest thing to a "complete" protein there is, aside from human flesh, have no fiber. Or how milk, cod liver oil, or sunshine are the only real sources of vitamin D (and one of them is a controversial food, one tastes and feels horrible, and one causes cancer).

Originally Posted by drallig9399

I dont know I think you have to ask those Monty Python guys, I think thats were it came from.

Kids these days.
This is a classic. It's from Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall."

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

I can honestly admit I am not up on my Pink Floyd. Shoot, for the longest time I thought that "I'm half the man I used to be/ because my feelings have gone away" (I think the title is 'Creep') song was done by Nirvana but then my friend clowned me and I learned it was Stone Temple Pilots. Rap, I'm an afficiondo, the other stuff I just listen to what sounds good to me.

[jorgetkd]

bioavailability of proteins and minerals in vegetables is so low that no matter how much they have, they will never give you what you need, thats why this is the perfect meal for a Martial Artist:







I got a little bit hungry...

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

Jorge,
you cant be posting stuff like that in the middle of the day when people cant be going to get any of it !

[jorgetkd]

Originally Posted by drallig9399

Jorge,
you cant be posting stuff like that in the middle of the day when people cant be going to get any of it !

ha ha ha!!!
I'm sorry, won't do it again...

[Spinach]

"Your first statement is wrong. So very wrong."

Strong words.

I propose that you are misguided and biased. Despite being married to and raised by vegetarians you are not an expert and are in no position to flatly refute anyone. Also, having "been on so many forums" isn’t a qualifying factor either. Despite acting like your view is objective, your behavior has been thoroughly priggish. As such I now have no qualms behaving in a like manner.

So you joined this discussion to 'educate' us poor fools on such a subjective topic. Here are several reasons why you need to further your own education first.

Your experiences are with your own social group and with the limited number of people you interact with in your life. As such your opinion is as subjective as everyone elses.

Your experiences are in mundane, social situations. There is so much more to life then this. A vegetarian who might not preach to you in a social setting might be totally different beast away from you. People act differently depending on their company. Simply put, you don’t know. You only know what these people present to you. Perhaps the very self righteousness that you have presented to here is the same reason people present themselves in a good light to you. Nobody likes to be judged.

As a health professional I see a different side to a client to what the clients family and friends might see. As you are not a person in a situation like this you don`t know if a vegetarian views are hard to deal with or not. As it is, they are. Although I will flatly say that vegans are much worse then vegetarians. More to the point, as you are not a health professional you have probably not had a health pro colleague who is vegetarian. Could you see that being more annoying when engaging in professional conversation about say diet or even health in general? Yet often these people aren’t like that with their friends. However they are still being pushy and preachy, even if it is just with their colleagues.

Is a person to be considered not dangerous if they have killed someone, on accounts that it was just once and for the other periods of their lives they were very likable people? Or indeed is it fair that they are accountable for their transgressions despite their other qualities. Does being a nice guy most of the time mean that you are absolved of beating your wife even once? No, that persons hands are stained forever.

I challenge you to find a vegetarian who hasn’t, at some point in their life, preached to another person about the virtues of their lunch. You won’t be able to. The very nature of going against mainstream society means people will speak out at least once(usually more) to re-establish their identity. This might be to a friend, classmate, work colleague or family member. Or it might be a whole class room as a child does an assignment on the virtues of not eating meat and how, by eating meat you are endorsing the death of millions of animals and contributing to global warming. This is the reason why most everybody has the opinion that vegetarians are, by nature, preachy. Because most everybody has at some point in their life had a vegetarian preach at them, directly or indirectly. Often more then once. When a teacher talks about the benifit of eating vegetables the meat eaters don't start ranting about how eating vegetables is murder. If you keep reading about it on forums, if you yourself had the same idea, if people keep saying the same thing then take a ****ing hint. Perhaps, with so many people following this school of thought, it is more legitimate then you think? Perhaps your biased views, which ignore a lot of facts, in fact don’t counter the experiences of millions? Does the simple fact that you have seen vegetarians not being preachy render everyone else’s experiences and conclusions wrong? Outright?

Rant over.

As a health professional I have an obligation to help people. I must admit, I don`t like to be at work when I am at home. At home I like to be relaxed about the things that I say. In this case I was happy to slowly nudge people in the right direction.

However, it seems you can’t take a hint. I was trying to let that article do the talking for me because I am trying to also nurse a newborn infant. It kinda takes up alot of time. Even writing this has been a tedious affair…

I don’t know where you get your education from, I don’t know what you do for a living. I do numerous things. They all relate to health and fitness. My knowledge has to be working knowledge, not forum theory, because in the case of critical condition or rehab cases, the consequences of failure are undesirable.

In addition I work with two MDs and a physio. The doctors also share the opinion of vegetable oils being bad. We all have reason. It works, it is not theory. Numerous times I have had clients come to me as a physical trainer in bad condition wanting to lose weight cause their doctor told them if they didn’t they would die, probably of heart failure. I don`t know if you are aware but there are more symptoms to a heart condition then just heart attacks and dying. Anyway, every time I have sent them off to one of these doctors for an examination to determine if they are fit to start a fitness program. Every time these clients have had a diet with no animal fats in it at all, instead using things like rape seed oil and margarine in there cooking and so on. And they ate chicken instead of beef and pork. They were trying hard. I was impressed with their dedication cause those things taste awful. After checking them out the doctors and I recommend dietary changes before an exercise program to get him fit. To start with all we asked was for them to remove the margarine and vegetable oils from his diet and replace them with butter, lard/dripping and cream. The chicken was ok for the moment. After an initial rise, the cholesterol started to go down a bit on its own accord and a number of the symptoms started to disappear. This is without exercise and eating heaps of vegetables and the like. After this initial improvement we initiate a more thorough lifestyle change. And when the condition starts to stabilize I start with an exercise prgram which finishes it off. But even putting that aside, you have already stated how bad corn syrup is. You are aware of how unnatural it is for the human body to take so much in one dose. It is exceedingly difficult to eat enough corn to equal one tablespoon of corn syrup. It is a concentrated substance that would normally be found in small amounts in our diets. When large amounts are consumed health problems follow. You seem to be cool with that. Then tell me why are you so defensive about vegetable oils? I challenge you to extract a tablespoon of oil from a vegetable. Do you have any idea how many vegetables are required to fill a container of generic 'vegetable oil'? It is impossible to eat enough veggies to equal the amount in one table spoon. Once more it is a substance that would normally be found in small amounts in our diet that is in unnaturally high amounts. When large amounts are consumed the effects are as bad as corn syrup.

Now lets take this a step further. The country you worship so much, Japan, has been eating high fat foods for centuries. Despite popular thinking in the west, most of Japanese diets are very high in fat. They like fat with a bit of meat on it you could say. There are hundreds of dishes available with a raw egg yoke on the top to spread through the food. When cooking at home Japanese people use lard, dripping and to a lesser extent butter. The only time veggie oils are used is when deep frying and they use sunflower oil. Also, Japanese people smoke like chimneys. Alcohol is regularly consumed. Alot of noodles and white rice and bread is also popular. They love eggs. Everyone knows they like fish. Japanese tv is mostly programs of people eating really fatty bbq meats and dishes high in fat. And Japanese beef is mostly fed beer(omega 6 emphasis). Most Japanese people have high stress lifestyles and work at least two jobs(the wage is pathetically low). And yet they are known for having a low rate of heart disease and are the longest lived population in the world (not including that freaky village near Tibet). Government studies has shown a link between the consumption of natural fats and things like eggs to the improved health and life expectancy after the post ww2 depression(for ten years after the life expectancy in the good prefectures was about 60). Also, the idea of gyms is only recently come about and before that most people were very unfit from sedentary jobs. And yet the incidence of heart attacks (not death from heart attacks) is low.

That is, it was like that. In the past four years some clever people have been marketing veggie oils as health products. Margarine has been pushed onto the market as well. Now a lot of breads and cakes and so on contain veggie fats. People are starting to cook with veggie fats, deep fry in rapeseed(canola) oil and margarine is now used as a condiment. Since this has happened, heart-disease-has-gone-up. Nothing else has changed. There are no anti smoking initiatives. People are working the same insane amount. Eating the same fatty meats and fish and rice but heart disease is up. Hmm. Seriously if you rebut this you are a fool. Even the government folks are aware of this. Its not like America where it can be difficult to pin point an underlying cause, it is very clear. Also, you can’t point out that Japan has an aging population as the increase has a wide spectrum of affected ages.


Also, it wasn’t just the vegetarians that knew about trans-fats. It just seems that way cause they were the only ones who preached about it.