Shao-Lin Kuei Ninjitsu

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Draven

Actually the Lin Kuei, are mention in Arts of the Ninja, some old generalized book on Ninjitsu/ninjutsu. As I recall, Lin (means forrest) and Kuei (means demon or spirit). The Lin Kuei were a link between the Tengu myth of the ninja in Japan.

I'm not sure on details but a group of Chinese bandits/assassins called the "forrest demons" who were alledgedly ran out of China to Japan. And who allegedly became known as the Tengu in Japan and taught some of there methods to the peasants creating Japanese ninja. Not sure what they base this on.

Doesn't explain the Bujutsu link to the art, which most scholars link to Chinese philosophy and tactics.

It's like the story of the first jujitsu practicer, was studying medicine in China and brought back Jujitsu to Japan. The thing with Japanese history is thats its extremely subjective and been written and rewritten many times. Plus the Japanese have a habit of "adding age" to anything of value to make it seem more important then it was.

ive never seen any mention of lin kuei in ninjutsu history besides that of the Mythical Ashida Kim psuedo ninja-lore

the Tengu demons yes, im familiar with that from Saito-ryu ninjitsu. but Tengu have nothing to do with Lin kuei.

every country has subjective History...the same can be said of China who has also re-written and covered up some of thier origins concerning martial arts.

how did you come to the conclusion that the first jujitsu practicioner brought ....jujitsu and medicine to Japan from China?

[47MartialMan]

[quote=Shinobi_Kokujin;44640]ive never seen any mention of lin kuei in ninjutsu history besides that of the Mythical 1.) Ashida Kim psuedo ninja-lore

the Tengu demons yes, im familiar with that from Saito-ryu ninjitsu. but 2.) Tengu have nothing to do with Lin kuei.

every country has subjective History...3.) the same can be said of China who has also re-written and covered up some of thier origins concerning martial arts.

4.) how did you come to the conclusion that the first jujitsu practicioner brought ....jujitsu and medicine to Japan from China?[/QUOTE]

1.) And therefore-the truth be known-or shall I say- "untruth be known"

2.) Strange, as people try to cross names to create something different. But by doing so, actually disfigures

3.) Agreed. Which is why I has stated, that these cultures always had conflict esp in that retorspect. It is a issue of pride-face.

4.) This came from a few sources that Takeda Sokaku, whom many beleive to be the founder of Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu. He had traveled to other Asian countries....so......

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

ive never seen any mention of lin kuei in ninjutsu history besides that of the Mythical Ashida Kim psuedo ninja-lore

All ninja lore is psuedo-ninja lore. Even Hatsumi's "proven ninja lineage" is unproven. Especially since he refuses to turn over the scrolls for authentication, so as far as I see it all ninjitsu is psuedo ninja lore.

I've never seen Ashida Kim mention the Lin Kuei either.

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

the Tengu demons yes, im familiar with that from Saito-ryu ninjitsu. but Tengu have nothing to do with Lin kuei.

I don't know details, so I can't say yay or nay. But I saw it in a book, if I can dig it up I'll drop a author's name and page number. It was only one line in a paragraph. I think it was the same place the MK guys got their concept from.

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

every country has subjective History...the same can be said of China who has also re-written and covered up some of thier origins concerning martial arts.

Yes but Japan is the only country that will invent a martial arts in 1975 and say it traces back a thousand years, except for TKD in south korea. But the TKD is polical, since modern TKD's inventor sided with North Korea.

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

how did you come to the conclusion that the first jujitsu practicioner brought ....jujitsu and medicine to Japan from China?

First all Japanese culture, as we know it came from China. Historic documention from older periods of Chinese history. When the Chinese discovered the Japanese Islands the Japanese were using stone weapons, had no written language, and were basically stuck in the stone age. The Japanese didn't even have fuedalism, they were warring tribes of wildmen.

The Chinese taught them how to writen, how to make steal, ect. So realistically any Japanese history before China's intervention is solely verbal and most likely mythical. Anyway, the oldest know person to "use/invent" jujitsu, name escapes me, was reported to have gone to China to study medicine and returned with herbs and Jujitsu. I forget the name of book I got this from, it was also on a program on the history channel.

The Chinese have several grappling systems older then feudal Japanese culture, Chin-Na being the most well known, that are very "Jujitsu-like." Aside from the the two Sino-wars and the Russo Japanese war there hasn't been any major conflicts between China and Japan as empires. And that were allot of the bad blood comes from, between the two.

Oh yeah, the Jujitsu guy didn't bring back medicine, the Chinese did that when they first found the Japanese. He just went to China to study with them and learn medicine there. It was common practice for centuries...

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Draven

1.) All ninja lore is psuedo-ninja lore. Even Hatsumi's "proven ninja lineage" is unproven. Especially since he refuses to turn over the scrolls for authentication, so as far as I see it all ninjitsu is psuedo ninja lore.

2.) I've never seen Ashida Kim mention the Lin Kuei either.

3.) I don't know details, so I can't say yay or nay. But I saw it in a book, if I can dig it up I'll drop a author's name and page number. It was only one line in a paragraph. I think it was the same place the MK guys got their concept from.

4.) Yes but Japan is the only country that will invent a martial arts in 1975 and say it traces back a thousand years, except for TKD in south korea. But the TKD is polical, since modern TKD's inventor sided with North Korea.

5.) First all Japanese culture, as we know it came from China. Historic documention from older periods of Chinese history. When the Chinese discovered the Japanese Islands the Japanese were using stone weapons, had no written language, and were basically stuck in the stone age. The Japanese didn't even have fuedalism, they were warring tribes of wildmen.

6.) The Chinese taught them how to writen, how to make steal, ect. So realistically any Japanese history before China's intervention is solely verbal and most likely mythical.

7.) Anyway, the oldest know person to "use/invent" jujitsu, name escapes me, was reported to have gone to China to study medicine and returned with herbs and Jujitsu. I forget the name of book I got this from, it was also on a program on the history channel.

8.) The Chinese have several grappling systems older then feudal Japanese culture, Chin-Na being the most well known, that are very "Jujitsu-like." Aside from the the two Sino-wars and the Russo Japanese war there hasn't been any major conflicts between China and Japan as empires. And that were allot of the bad blood comes from, between the two.

9.) Oh yeah, the Jujitsu guy didn't bring back medicine, the Chinese did that when they first found the Japanese. He just went to China to study with them and learn medicine there. It was common practice for centuries...

1.) Indeed. How can a lineage of assasins afford to keep records? Like Shaolin, Ninjitsu is over-hyped.

2.) This guy has a lot of unexplanable stuff.

3.) There was a old book in a local library that stated nearly the same. I will see if it is still there.

4.) And with that, the Chinese Communist Government (PRC) finally seen a need (commercial and pride propaganda), to re-hype Shaolin.

5.) And to that, much of Chinese stuff came from India and Middle East.

6.) Well, if one is to trace the genetics, I guess they could have all came from Tibet.

7.) As I stated; This came from a few sources that Takeda Sokaku, whom many beleive to be the founder of Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu. He had traveled to other Asian countries....so......

8.) They also had a old style of wrestling - I'll give you a hint "Horn Butting".

9.) Given that the Japanese took Karate from Okinawa, which in turn Okinawa got its foundation from maonland China,,,given that the Japanese acccepted Buddhism and Ch;en to which they call Zen....

However, Japanese sword making, was NOT Chinese influenced as the techniques and craft was many centuries of trial and error.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

What does Kuei mean?

I have no knowledge of the rest of the conversation, or too little to be of help, but I can answer that.

As far as I have been told (and this is role-playing-game knowledge, so it could be a bit skewed, but the source is a company that normally prides itself on using fact to weave their fiction), kuei means something like "demon" "spirit" or "of the supernatural".

[John Takeshi]

Lin means "forest". Kuei means "Demon".

Shao means "young."

Hence, Shao-Lin Keui means "Young Forest Demon".

They were the predecessors of a branch of Japanese ninjitsu, which has its root in the teachings of a southern Chinese Monk. Hence I tag Ninjitsu onto the end of the name, in order to identify the branch of ninjitsu claimed by my lineage, through Grandmaster Sensei Takeshi Ukeno. It's not Japanese ninjitsu, per say. But nobody knows what Shao-Lin Kuei is, so it wouldn't be good for business. But since I have studied Bujinkan, I know that they are almost exactly alike. It's a mixed martial art. I consider it my personal style, as I am both Chinese and Japanese. Why would anyone here want to ridicule my heritage? I will not tolerate anyone here being racist against me.

In my short term here, I have been on good terms with most of the moderators, and I don't think it would be beyond them to ban some of the ruder persons in this thread. Is this the welcome a new person to this forum can expect?

Many of you have been polite, and I thank you for that.

I think this demonstrates how kind you all are.

[moke108]

I am doing research on chinese mythical folk lore. I am not say your art is a myth, far from it because the Lin Kuei clan exsisted since 210 BC I believe. However, attach to your art of Lin Kuei, I believe their are certain Elders that have sapposedly exsist and I am trying to see if you have heard any of these terms in your Lin Kuei History.

1) A Lin Kuei Grand Master reffered to as a "THE ELDER" what is the Elders name?

2) A crippled old man that was attack by a Tiger. Does this cripple have a name?

3) A combat blade or knife used by the Lin Kuei as a sword counter and grapping weapon. Does such a thing exsist and what would it's name be?

It would be an honor to have some assistance.

My name is Moke M. and I reside in Hawaii.

My Respects Sifu.
My Respects Sigung.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Draven

All ninja lore is psuedo-ninja lore. Even Hatsumi's "proven ninja lineage" is unproven. Especially since he refuses to turn over the scrolls for authentication, so as far as I see it all ninjitsu is psuedo ninja lore.

I dont think that All of Japanese culture came from China...there are other influences. and Japan an Korea has some Chinese influence but to say that All of the culture comes from China is ludicrous.

thats kinda like saying that All martial arts came from China...when what they do is a shadow of Indian arts.

Hatsumi Sensie's Lineage is Proven as is Takamatsu Sensie. but the issue with the scrolls....well its not really the scrolls soley

but with Ninjutsu....the Koryu board acknowledges Ninjutsu but they dont know if it should be listed with thier other Koryu arts because of the cloak & dagger aspects of Ninjutsu and also because they are majority Budo arts

there is also Jinichi Kawakami who is a true descendant of the Koga clan (ban family) an he's acknowledged by the Koryu board but like Hatsumi they dont know for sure to list ninjutsu with thier Budo arts.

but does Jinichi or Hatsumi give a damn?.....no i wouldnt give a damn either about being accepted into the social circle of a bunch of watered down Gendai Budo people.

Ninjutsu follows the concepts of the Old way...not the new watered down Sportish way that some but not all Budo arts follow.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

I have no knowledge of the rest of the conversation, or too little to be of help, but I can answer that.

As far as I have been told (and this is role-playing-game knowledge, so it could be a bit skewed, but the source is a company that normally prides itself on using fact to weave their fiction), kuei means something like "demon" "spirit" or "of the supernatural".

Thanks, I knew that. but I was looking for someone else to respond....

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by moke108

I am doing research on chinese mythical folk lore. I am not say your art is a myth, far from it because the Lin Kuei clan exsisted since 210 BC I believe. However, attach to your art of Lin Kuei, I believe their are certain Elders that have sapposedly exsist and I am trying to see if you have heard any of these terms in your Lin Kuei History.

1) A Lin Kuei Grand Master reffered to as a "THE ELDER" what is the Elders name?

2) A crippled old man that was attack by a Tiger. Does this cripple have a name?

3) A combat blade or knife used by the Lin Kuei as a sword counter and grapping weapon. Does such a thing exsist and what would it's name be?

It would be an honor to have some assistance.

My name is Moke M. and I reside in Hawaii.

My Respects Sifu.
My Respects Sigung.

Perhaps many people have researched such legend, myth, hostory, only to re-introduce certain name aspects n order to differentiate themselves from others or to brong upon themselves more mystique or merit. Thus becomong a 'so called" instrcutor. Thus teaching people who are blinded by mere loyality.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Lin means "forest". Kuei means "Demon".

Shao means "young."

Hence, Shao-Lin Keui means "Young Forest Demon".

They were the predecessors of a branch of Japanese ninjitsu, which has its root in the teachings of a southern Chinese Monk. Hence I tag Ninjitsu onto the end of the name, in order to identify the branch of ninjitsu claimed by my lineage, through Grandmaster Sensei Takeshi Ukeno. It's not Japanese ninjitsu, per say. But nobody knows what Shao-Lin Kuei is, so it wouldn't be good for business. But since I have studied Bujinkan, I know that they are almost exactly alike. It's a mixed martial art. I consider it my personal style, as I am both Chinese and Japanese. Why would anyone here want to ridicule my heritage? I will not tolerate anyone here being racist against me.

In my short term here, I have been on good terms with most of the moderators, and I don't think it would be beyond them to ban some of the ruder persons in this thread. Is this the welcome a new person to this forum can expect?

Many of you have been polite, and I thank you for that.

I think this demonstrates how kind you all are.

Hello and welcome. I don't know much about ninjitsu. The few ninjutsu practitioners I have met trace their lineage to Iga and practice a Buddhits-like spiritual tradition.
I respect anyone who has dedicated as much of their life to martial arts as you have. It is an honor to meet you even if only in cyber space.

[nykaratelvr23]

Welcome to the Forum and have a good time.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I am not naive and gullible enough to give benefit of the doubt when the issue of high dans are involved.



Maybe you should. Afterall, to come about saying that you a 10th dan and then posting that it doesnt mean anything is hypocrtitical and contradictory

Maybe you should learn some ettiquette. Respecting others achievements on face value until proven otherwise is not naive, it's standard martial arts courtesy.

[JoaNor]

Originally Posted by nykaratelvr23

Welcome to the Forum and have a good time.

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

Hello and welcome.
I respect anyone who has dedicated as much of their life to martial arts as you have. It is an honor to meet you even if only in cyber space.

Now, this guy has been here for over 1 year, so I don't think you need to welcome him. Find a different way to earn a lot of posts.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by JoaNor

Now, this guy has been here for over 1 year, so I don't think you need to welcome him. Find a different way to earn a lot of posts.

That may be so but I am quite new and have not yet greated John Takeshi. Not saying hello to John Takeshi is like joining a dojo and not introducing myself to the senior students because they have been there a long time. I'm making a formal introduction to someone I believe is worth introducing myself to. When you grow up a bit kid you'll realise that it's worth formally introducing yourself to others whom you believe have knowledge worth learning.
Also since you so obviously love making useless posts, I suggest stayin in the "my style is better than your style" threads.