Old Dawg wanting to learn new tricks !

[UB#1]

Greetings to all!
Im 42 with a lot of arthritis and have had knee and ankle surgery. I want to train in an effective martial art that is a good fit for me. In my area I have the following options: Maui Thaui, Wing Chun, Combat Hapkido, Shoot Fighting, Judo, Aki-JiJitsu, and BJJ. Of all of them, Judo & Maui Thai fasinate me the most. Any advice for the best fit for me? I am too old for katas and to un-cordinated for acrobatic high kicks. I have sought advice several times, but when I mention my limitations I get no response most of the time. The only suggestions I have got is Judo based on my stature. I am 5'10 with broad shoulders and have a lot of upper body strength. I am a former powerlifter (bench pressed 505 @ 242 several years ago). I don't believe in the high acrobatic kicks even if I could do them. So, any advice on the best fit or combination for me and how can I translate my bench press strength into grappling and/or strikes?

[souldrum71]

Welcome to the forums, UB. You certainly are lucky to have a lot of choices of martial arts in your area. I would suggest that you shop around at the local schools and, if possible, try some free introductory classes. Also, talk to the instructors and tell them what you are looking for in a martial art and what your physical limitations are. It does seem that judo or any of the other grappling arts would be a good fit for you with your upper body strength. However, the sweeps and throws of judo are going to test your knees and ankles a lot. Like I said before, the best thing to do is be picky and take close looks at all of the available arts. Good luck.

[Militis]

Of course it is a must for you to actually go to the different facilities and see if you like them. I don't know how this place does it, but muay thai is generally a rougher martial art. I don't really know what to tell you other than go to the places and check them out. An art, such as Muay Thai, can differ a lot depending on who teaches it.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Hey man welcome. Personally I would recomend bjj I may be a little biased though. I'm 33 had knee replacement surgery curently I teach at gym that focuses on MMA competition, I teach wrestling, Muay Thai and submission grappling. I think you'll find bjj very interesting and it will have less impact on your injury then say MT or Judo. Where are you located at some one here may be able to point you in a good direction. Wing Chun may be ok for you as well but, when I studied it the stances bothered me knee after a while plus you'll be working a lot more on form then say in bjj or Judo.

Cheers and good luck training!!

[ladyfighter]

Welcome to the site! Everyone is right, shop around and tell them your limatations and let them know you are seriously interested!

[UB#1]

Thanks for your post...you bring up a good point about the sweeps and throws of judo testing my knees and ankles a lot. I had not considered this. I have pins in my ankle to help deal with the pain. However, with the knee, I never know when it will give out on me. I guess that is the real issue, it "buckels" on me without warning. I am currently in the gym trying to build up some strenth in that knee. Not making much progress thogh. Ive noticed, most of the time its when I turn to quickly. If I not deliberately turning slow, I will go to the floor at times. Any advice on addressing this without weights?

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by UB#1

Greetings to all!
Im 42 with a lot of arthritis and have had knee and ankle surgery. I want to train in an effective martial art that is a good fit for me. In my area I have the following options: Maui Thaui, Wing Chun, Combat Hapkido, Shoot Fighting, Judo, Aki-JiJitsu, and BJJ. Of all of them, Judo & Maui Thai fasinate me the most. Any advice for the best fit for me? I am too old for katas and to un-cordinated for acrobatic high kicks. I have sought advice several times, but when I mention my limitations I get no response most of the time. The only suggestions I have got is Judo based on my stature. I am 5'10 with broad shoulders and have a lot of upper body strength. I am a former powerlifter (bench pressed 505 @ 242 several years ago). I don't believe in the high acrobatic kicks even if I could do them. So, any advice on the best fit or combination for me and how can I translate my bench press strength into grappling and/or strikes?

UB#1,

My bias is towards BJJ but that's cause that's what I do and teach. But here's an honest assessment on your options:

Maui Thai: Real Muay Thai training is tough. There is also a dancing and singing element involved. It's strengths are that it is probably the most effective striking art you can learn. It's weaknesses are that it's very tough and consists of a lot of live sparring.

Win Chun: Most forms of Kung-Fu are going to involve nearly 100% kata. There is a bit of mysticism involved. It's strenghts are that it is easy on the body and promotes flexibility and health benefits. It's weaknesses are that there is not much sparring and is questionable as a form of self defense (I'm going to take some heat for that statement!)

Combat Hapkido: Hapkido is going to have a mix of striking, throws and some joint locks. It's strengths are that it is practical and goof for self defense. It's weakness is that it's a bit hard on the body and doesn't involve enough grappling to be extremely effective.

Shoot Fighting: Shoot fighting is really MMA. You will learn everything you need to be a fighter from striking, takedowns and throws, grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is extremely effective, not much better you could for learning to fight. It's weakness is that it's extremely hard on the body and made for fighters. Not for the average person.

Judo: Judo's concentration is on throws and pins. It's strenghts are that you will learn the absolute best ways to get someone on the ground and learn some submission. It's weakness is that most Judo school concentrate on throwing which is hard on the body and has no striking and limited submissions.

Aki-JiJitsu: I'm not that familiar with Aki-JuJitsu but I would imagine it's a lot of throws with some ground work and submission.

BJJ: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is primarily concentrating on grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is very effective and easy to train. It's weaknesses are that it does have limited striking and takes a long time to learn.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

UB#1,

My bias is towards BJJ but that's cause that's what I do and teach. But here's an honest assessment on your options:

Maui Thai: Real Muay Thai training is tough. There is also a dancing and singing element involved. It's strengths are that it is probably the most effective striking art you can learn. It's weaknesses are that it's very tough and consists of a lot of live sparring.

Win Chun: Most forms of Kung-Fu are going to involve nearly 100% kata. There is a bit of mysticism involved. It's strenghts are that it is easy on the body and promotes flexibility and health benefits. It's weaknesses are that there is not much sparring and is questionable as a form of self defense (I'm going to take some heat for that statement!)

Combat Hapkido: Hapkido is going to have a mix of striking, throws and some joint locks. It's strengths are that it is practical and goof for self defense. It's weakness is that it's a bit hard on the body and doesn't involve enough grappling to be extremely effective.

Shoot Fighting: Shoot fighting is really MMA. You will learn everything you need to be a fighter from striking, takedowns and throws, grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is extremely effective, not much better you could for learning to fight. It's weakness is that it's extremely hard on the body and made for fighters. Not for the average person.

Judo: Judo's concentration is on throws and pins. It's strenghts are that you will learn the absolute best ways to get someone on the ground and learn some submission. It's weakness is that most Judo school concentrate on throwing which is hard on the body and has no striking and limited submissions.

Aki-JiJitsu: I'm not that familiar with Aki-JuJitsu but I would imagine it's a lot of throws with some ground work and submission.

BJJ: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is primarily concentrating on grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is very effective and easy to train. It's weaknesses are that it does have limited striking and takes a long time to learn.

Dead on. Aki-Jijitsu is a lot of small join manipulations used for throws and subs not a lot if any ground work, simular to Akido.

Originally Posted by UB#1

Thanks for your post...you bring up a good point about the sweeps and throws of judo testing my knees and ankles a lot. I had not considered this. I have pins in my ankle to help deal with the pain. However, with the knee, I never know when it will give out on me. I guess that is the real issue, it "buckels" on me without warning. I am currently in the gym trying to build up some strenth in that knee. Not making much progress thogh. Ive noticed, most of the time its when I turn to quickly. If I not deliberately turning slow, I will go to the floor at times. Any advice on addressing this without weights?

Lunges and squats bro. Lots of lunges. Don't go really deep at first build your self up to it.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

UB#1,


Win Chun: Most forms of Kung-Fu are going to involve nearly 100% kata. There is a bit of mysticism involved. It's strenghts are that it is easy on the body and promotes flexibility and health benefits. It's weaknesses are that there is not much sparring and is questionable as a form of self defense (I'm going to take some heat for that statement!)

LOL Joe, if you think Wing Chun isn't good for self defense then you haven't experincedd the real stuff. Like any martial arts its all in the understanding that is being passed along from the teacher and the way you are training. While we don't sport spar much, we do spar with fully resisting opponents without all the gear on. This is neccessary in any martial arts that calls itself a defense art. I know this will be a suprise to some, but we actually grapple and <gasp> ground fight occasionally.

Joe, if your eever in Kansas City, lets get together and I'll show you what I mean about real. I don't mean that as a challenge, just a trade of knowledge...I figure I can always learn more about the ground game.

[gbells]

Welcome to the forums UB, give'em all a try and see which one fits you.Everyone has some sort of limitations. Good luck sir.

[UB#1]

[color="Red"]Shoot Fighting: Shoot fighting is really MMA. You will learn everything you need to be a fighter from striking, takedowns and throws, grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is extremely effective, not much better you could for learning to fight. It's weakness is that it's extremely hard on the body and made for fighters. Not for the average person

You have given a lot of good info on the different sytles...thanks! From what I gather from your post, Shoot Fighting sounds to me to be the most well-rounded of the styles. Based on what I understand you saying, my knee probaly would not hold up-especially during the wrestling aspect. I would love to give this style a try but would need to build myself up over a long period of time and see how my knee holds up. So, based on all the posts Ive got so far, Ive narrowed my options down at this point to Judo or BJJ. Then, if all goes well in a few years, maybe then the shootfighting could be an option. From all that I have read, the difference from Judo and BJJ is the empahsis on the ground in BJJ. One instructor said if you hold a black belt in Judo, all you really need is some advanced submission trianing that is not allowed or taught in Judo. In your opinion, is this accurate? If this is correct, then I will probaly start in Judo and address the advanced BJJ training and my love for Maui Thai when and if I am ready for the shootfighting.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

LOL Joe, if you think Wing Chun isn't good for self defense then you haven't experincedd the real stuff. Like any martial arts its all in the understanding that is being passed along from the teacher and the way you are training. While we don't sport spar much, we do spar with fully resisting opponents without all the gear on. This is neccessary in any martial arts that calls itself a defense art. I know this will be a suprise to some, but we actually grapple and <gasp> ground fight occasionally.

Joe, if your eever in Kansas City, lets get together and I'll show you what I mean about real. I don't mean that as a challenge, just a trade of knowledge...I figure I can always learn more about the ground game.

Dude I like wing chun did it for a few years, even studied a bit with Augustine Fong but, the grappling in it is hot garbage bro. The rest of the system has sound theroies and techniques but the grappling.....well as I stated previously. With that said I believe it's the most effective of the systems of kung fu that I've seen.

[UB#1]

"if you think Wing Chun isn't good for self defense then you haven't experincedd the real stuff"

Forgive me, I dont know how to resond directly to posts. But from what I understand about this style, it is very aggressive. Thats what interests me the most. My question is, can you train in specfic parts of this art to complement other styles. For instance, the "entry techniques" and "trapping" sound really interesting and could (in my unexperienced opinon of course) really complement other styles. An example of this is Combat Hapkido...they have incorporated some of the trapping in art from Wing Chun. Given that you practice Wing Chun, I would value your input on this.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by UB#1

[color="Red"]Shoot Fighting: Shoot fighting is really MMA. You will learn everything you need to be a fighter from striking, takedowns and throws, grappling and submissions. It's strengths are that it is extremely effective, not much better you could for learning to fight. It's weakness is that it's extremely hard on the body and made for fighters. Not for the average person

You have given a lot of good info on the different sytles...thanks! From what I gather from your post, Shoot Fighting sounds to me to be the most well-rounded of the styles. Based on what I understand you saying, my knee probaly would not hold up-especially during the wrestling aspect. I would love to give this style a try but would need to build myself up over a long period of time and see how my knee holds up. So, based on all the posts Ive got so far, Ive narrowed my options down at this point to Judo or BJJ. Then, if all goes well in a few years, maybe then the shootfighting could be an option. From all that I have read, the difference from Judo and BJJ is the empahsis on the ground in BJJ. One instructor said if you hold a black belt in Judo, all you really need is some advanced submission trianing that is not allowed or taught in Judo. In your opinion, is this accurate? If this is correct, then I will probaly start in Judo and address the advanced BJJ training and my love for Maui Thai when and if I am ready for the shootfighting.

BJJ came from Judo so that is partially true. However where Judo does have some ground aspect to it called ne waza, it always comes up short when compared to bjj in that aspect. It's not just the submission game part but, their gaurd isn't that great same with gaurd passes and, general positioning on the ground isn't as advanced as bjj. That said Judo is great for throws with the gi on. Some Judo throws translate well in a no-gi situation others just simply won't work at all with out a gi.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by UB#1

"if you think Wing Chun isn't good for self defense then you haven't experincedd the real stuff"

Forgive me, I dont know how to resond directly to posts. But from what I understand about this style, it is very aggressive. Thats what interests me the most. My question is, can you train in specfic parts of this art to complement other styles. For instance, the "entry techniques" and "trapping" sound really interesting and could (in my unexperienced opinon of course) really complement other styles. An example of this is Combat Hapkido...they have incorporated some of the trapping in art from Wing Chun. Given that you practice Wing Chun, I would value your input on this.

I think it is dependant upon the experience of the person incorporating the techniques. You'd have to understand the concepts that underly the technique and someone without experience just isn't going to pick that up quickly. I've seen some of the other systems that have adapted Wing Chun techniques, and to be honest, the techniques are flawed. Many times they are mimicing what they think is Wing Chun, but don't have the proper idea of triangulation, structure, or centerline theory. Its kinda like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. A big give away to this is if you see them do a tan sau, wu sau, or bong sau (types of blocks ) with thier elbows outside thier body line. Weakens the block to the point of ineffectiveness.

Triangle, I've met Mr Fong a few times. Really nice guy and his Chi Sao is damn good. He does this push/pull thing that if you don't move your feet will just totally destroy your balance. If I remember right, he's of the Yip Man lineage and I have to agree, grappling in that lineage usually isn't tops due to some things I won't get into.