Old Dawg wanting to learn new tricks !

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

LOL Joe, if you think Wing Chun isn't good for self defense then you haven't experincedd the real stuff. Like any martial arts its all in the understanding that is being passed along from the teacher and the way you are training. While we don't sport spar much, we do spar with fully resisting opponents without all the gear on. This is neccessary in any martial arts that calls itself a defense art. I know this will be a suprise to some, but we actually grapple and <gasp> ground fight occasionally.

Joe, if your eever in Kansas City, lets get together and I'll show you what I mean about real. I don't mean that as a challenge, just a trade of knowledge...I figure I can always learn more about the ground game.

I was wondering who was going to jump on me for this! LOL!

WC_Lun, I'm not trying to bash anybody's art, I'm just giving my assessment based on what I have seen with my own eyes. From a perspective of combat sports, I have not seen any Kung Fu people succeed. I have seen a lot of challenge matches and MMA matches with Kung Fu guys and they have never faired well. This doesn't mean that where you train doesn't do a better job, I'm just generalizing the art itself and the reputation that it has within the MMA community.

And definitely, if I make it out that way I would love to be proved wrong and learn something new. I love learning different perspectives on fighting, I have trained with people in just about anything you can think of. If I were to come out and train with you guys and you smashed me down, I would be the first one to come on here and sing your praises! I know you guys tend to think that MMA and BJJ guys are arrogant, but we really just want to learn whatever works. And we recognize that everyone has the potential to bring something new to the table.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by UB#1

You have given a lot of good info on the different sytles...thanks! From what I gather from your post, Shoot Fighting sounds to me to be the most well-rounded of the styles. Based on what I understand you saying, my knee probaly would not hold up-especially during the wrestling aspect. I would love to give this style a try but would need to build myself up over a long period of time and see how my knee holds up. So, based on all the posts Ive got so far, Ive narrowed my options down at this point to Judo or BJJ. Then, if all goes well in a few years, maybe then the shootfighting could be an option. From all that I have read, the difference from Judo and BJJ is the empahsis on the ground in BJJ. One instructor said if you hold a black belt in Judo, all you really need is some advanced submission trianing that is not allowed or taught in Judo. In your opinion, is this accurate? If this is correct, then I will probaly start in Judo and address the advanced BJJ training and my love for Maui Thai when and if I am ready for the shootfighting.

Judo and BJJ, barring competition rules, are nearly identical. However, since in a Judo tournament I can win a match with a throw most schools concentrate on the throws. In a BJJ match the only ways to win are an accumulation of points or submission and the throw is only worth two points so the concentration tends to be more on the submission. Also, because it's roots are still freshly coming from MMA it still has that element to it's training.

If your goal is to be a fighter, then I would say start with Judo and BJJ. This will give you a foundation in two areas that shootfighting uses but does not focus 100% on. It will give you an edge when you move into shootfighting.

[UB#1]

I appreciate all the good info I got. I have looked at other martial art threads on different sites and it always seemed to end up one style bashing the other (all but jumping through the screen and trashing each others style). This forum has not done this, just some stright forward opinions that I can think on. Thanks to all that have given their input! No ones opinion will be taken lightly! One final question, some in and out of this forum have suggested Judo & BJJ to complemennt each other. Would I get this in shootfighting? This is a lame comparison, but the only one I can think off > If shootfighting incorportates Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, & Maui Thai - would I not get more "bang for the buck" with this style? I realize this may be a lame question...however, all the previous styles I have mentioned are at least an hour drive and the least expensive is $ 75 / month...so, If I am going to make this type of financial and time commitment, I want it to count for something. I realize my knee will be the ultimate deciding factor. But Im in the gym working on those lunges that someone suggested. Im having to wear an unloading brace to start off with, mainly because it has given out on me so much without waring, I am "giddy". I can see some progress, so thinks for that tip!

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I was wondering who was going to jump on me for this! LOL!

WC_Lun, I'm not trying to bash anybody's art, I'm just giving my assessment based on what I have seen with my own eyes. From a perspective of combat sports, I have not seen any Kung Fu people succeed. I have seen a lot of challenge matches and MMA matches with Kung Fu guys and they have never faired well. This doesn't mean that where you train doesn't do a better job, I'm just generalizing the art itself and the reputation that it has within the MMA community.

And definitely, if I make it out that way I would love to be proved wrong and learn something new. I love learning different perspectives on fighting, I have trained with people in just about anything you can think of. If I were to come out and train with you guys and you smashed me down, I would be the first one to come on here and sing your praises! I know you guys tend to think that MMA and BJJ guys are arrogant, but we really just want to learn whatever works. And we recognize that everyone has the potential to bring something new to the table.

I know you weren't art bashing. I just come across a lot of peoople that think kung fu in general and wing chun in particular aren't good for self defense. I understand this is usually because someone has been exposed to a practioner that really didn't understand what they were doing. So I try to open eyes a little when I can. I think ANY art that focuses on the concepts we do and train like we do are going to be effective.

MMA and BJJ guys are like anyone else. There are the arrogant jerks then you have the ones who aren't so arrogant. Personally, the one that isn't stroking his own ego is usually the one that I would keep more of an eye on. There's a reason they are confident.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Personally, the one that isn't stroking his own ego is usually the one that I would keep more of an eye on. There's a reason they are confident.

Bingo. Confidence and arrogance are different. Arrogance is actually something people have when they need to cover up the fact they have no confidence. Confidence comes from knowledge.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

I'm choking all of you

JK

[complete]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your training.

[Marty Ryusui-ryu]

I'm just testing out multi quotes.... But just to mention that for injury's or frail bodies you would want an art where you don't strain yourself or use to much energy, not to much contact, preferable on your feet.... result possibly Aikido.

[47MartialMan]

Welcome aboard UB#1.

Seek the advice of a doctor before training.

Some arts maybe harder your injuries than others.

At your age, it will get progressively worse sooner than you think.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Wow, you have a hell of a lot of good options. Really depends on the quality of the instructors.
If you want to grapple Aki-Jijitsu or BJJ don't rely on legs anywhere near as much as Judo, so I suggest one of those. Depends if you like going to ground or standing up.
If you want to strike than Wing Chun is the way to go. It won't stress your legs as much as the other stuff and is almost wholly upper body striking. The only possible problem is it does have a few odd angles in its stances.

[nykaratelvr23]

Welcome to the fourm UB! Listen to these guys, they all know what they are talking about.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

Wow, you have a hell of a lot of good options. Really depends on the quality of the instructors.
If you want to grapple Aki-Jijitsu or BJJ don't rely on legs anywhere near as much as Judo, so I suggest one of those. Depends if you like going to ground or standing up.
If you want to strike than Wing Chun is the way to go. It won't stress your legs as much as the other stuff and is almost wholly upper body striking. The only possible problem is it does have a few odd angles in its stances.

If a Wing Chun practitioner is striking with just his upper body, then he isn't striking properly and his structure is crap. There are a couple of different types of Wing Chun and one of those has a goat riding stance that is a bit hard on the knees. The other's goat riding stance isn't nearly as bad. You will have to have your knees bent when practicing proper Wing Chun and as a person with a couple of bad knees, that can make your knees sore after a while. The more traditional styles of Wing Chun focus on a solid, but mobile base. This means you won't see many "odd" angles. The more modern Wing Chun, such as what many are calling Yip Man Wing Chun, do have some odd stances and angles.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

If a Wing Chun practitioner is striking with just his upper body, then he isn't striking properly and his structure is crap. There are a couple of different types of Wing Chun and one of those has a goat riding stance that is a bit hard on the knees. The other's goat riding stance isn't nearly as bad. You will have to have your knees bent when practicing proper Wing Chun and as a person with a couple of bad knees, that can make your knees sore after a while. The more traditional styles of Wing Chun focus on a solid, but mobile base. This means you won't see many "odd" angles. The more modern Wing Chun, such as what many are calling Yip Man Wing Chun, do have some odd stances and angles.

I didn't mean to infer that you only use your upper body to generate power but rather that Wing Chun favors hand strikes to kicking.

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

I didn't mean to infer that you only use your upper body to generate power but rather that Wing Chun favors hand strikes to kicking.

Ahh This is very true. Wing Chun guys don't like losing mobility and structure, which means less kicks and when kicking, using lower body kicks.

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Ahh This is very true. Wing Chun guys don't like losing mobility and structure, which means less kicks and when kicking, using lower body kicks.

That's why I would recommend Wing Chun to someone with knee problems who didn't like high kicks.Plus Wing Chun has superior grappling when compared to any of the other striking styles listed (sorry Muay Thai guys ).
Also in my experience a number of Wing Chun schools have links to other traditional Chinese schools, including Tai Chi which may be able to help you realign your movement in order to account for a weak knee.
And no I'm not a kung fu advocate (just had my ass handed to me by a 50 something year old Tai Chi instructor, who I later found out had just recovered from serious back injury caused by a car crash).