Virtues of Bushido

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

ok ok i need make a long post now to explain in detail what i think.
for the top one maybe i worded it badly i should i said they would have put up even more of a better fight"

bold is my reason.

ok
first kamekaze, a bunch of skilled pilots goes on a suicide mission. lemme ask you do you think this is not a waste of skilled pilots?
if they did fly back and refuel then wait for a new mission would it not have been better than throwing you and your plane onto the enemy

second seppukku, as we no japanese are not the only people who think losing a battle is a great disgrace.
vikings also did, but i do not think vikings are insane they die on the field even though when they are losing and have no chance of living they through themselves on the enemys <--- good idea.
but japanese when they are in a situation of almost no chances they immediately write a death poem have a feast, they start slicing their abdomens. <--- waste
thats my why bushido is a waste of warriors.

as for the insane bit.
even if you are to suicide, why slice your belly in such a creative way that causes so much pain and you only die of blood loss? and this is regarded the only 100% honorable way to die. Is that not insane to do things in this fashion?

Ah. See, we now have something to discuss.

I agree that the kamikaze was a waste, but this is also not what I am talking about when I talk about bushido and samurai. An aspect of bushido was utilized in this, but it is like calling what suicide bombers do in the middle east fulfilling a Muslim task. In both cases, one aspect of the code of conduct was utilized and the rest thrown away to suite the leaders' end.

As far as seppukku in the face of insurmountable odds (and the insanity of it), I refer you to an earlier post in which I pointed out that this was not a use of seppukku. Seppukku was used to remove dishonor from one's life and family. As I said, a samurai who faced a hundred soldiers would run in and fight or run away. He would not sit down, write a poem about death, and kill himself.
Seppukku also was not considered the only honorable way to die. It was considered a way to remove the stain of dishonor from one's soul. Therefore, if you have not committed any dishonorable deed, there is no need to commit seppukku. Dying in battle is considered honorable, as would be dying upon one's death bed (although dying in battle would be more glorious).
And pain/death as a cleanser is not a concept that only exists in Japan. In Christianity, Christ died in one of the most horrific ways possible in order to cleanse one's sins. Peter suffered an equally horrible death, though upside-down, in order to cleanse himself of the sin of refuting the knowledge of Jesus. Some tribes of Native Americans go on dream quests, in which they are dehydrated, starving, and severely injured in order to "find their way." Eastern ascetics utilize a myriad of pains and discomforts to cleanse themselves of impurities.
The biggest difference is that, in shinto, the sins of a father affect the entire bloodline until the sin is atoned for. If I believed this, I would go to very great lengths to insure that I left no stain upon my kin.

[Akai Shizuku]

And once again, sirdarksol is logic incarnate. Bushido is absolutely not a waste; it was all about dying honourably and virtuously. Bushido itself (subtlely) offered alternatives to seppuku. One of the parts of Bushido was wisdom, so if you could, using logical philosophy, find an alternative, it could be accepted (I think). Of course, I wasn't there (sadly), so I'm not 100% sure...But it seems to make sense to me. I personally tend to have alot of people depending on me and an obsession with morals, so death isn't an option unless it's honourable...So I'd look for every alternative that makes sense.

[dasher43]

Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku

Well, as a matter of fact, not all samurai followed Bushido. In fact, there weren't many who did. So, he's right about the fact that Bushido and Chivalry are romantasized; however, these moral codes DID exist. Bushido was followed by ronin more often than not; chivalry by black knights. This is because the ronin and black knights followed only the orders they chose to follow, from whom, and so on. Feudal lords rarely followed Bushido themselves, and chose a foul victory over an honourable one. This is why regular samurai hated ronin and the common people loved them. Common people were often saved from lapdog-like samurai by ronin who followed Bushido. Again, very few samurai followed Bushido; but those who did were revered and considered the most righteous and honourable.

this is very instresting i fort that they had to follow the rules but maybe not

[Akai Shizuku]

Originally Posted by dasher43

this is very instresting i fort that they had to follow the rules but maybe not

That's not the impression I meant to give. Samurai were supposed to follow Bushido. It's just that with every samurai who did, there was one or two who didn't or broke the code.

[sirdarksol]

Yes, they were supposed to follow the rules. There is no society in which everybody followed the rules. A household, to retain its honor, was supposed to kill itself if its lord was lost in battle. Many times, however, they didn't, and many times the conquerer did right by the now-homeless family, allowing them to keep and tend their home and land.

At the same time, as Akai points out, if a samurai can find an honorable, wise way around a situation, his lord might (might being the key word) overlook a momentary lapse in loyalty or such, as long as the end result was favorable. (Or any other situation where one virtue was put up against another)

[Chapel]

The problem with any codified system (including Bushido) is that it is possible to create a what-if that will lead to some kind of contradiction.

For example: Can God create a cake so big he could not eat it?

In the end, however, rules are made for people and people are not made for rules. We shouldn't be so concerned with the letter of the law as we would be concerned with the spirit of the law. As far as Bushido goes, it was a code to enforce citizenship among a people. If a person did something dishonorable but felt horrible for it, he might be given a reprieve from having to kill himself (depending on the severity of the crime).

[vysokij]

Sorry for being late to this thread. It's an excellent topic.

Bushido is a moral code that is not based on religion. Such a code can be grafted onto any religion. The code was technically an unwritten code. It was only published in the relatively modern era. People just understood their place in life, though many violated it.

The Kamikaze included skilled and not-so-skilled pilots. What drove them was Yamato Damashii... the Indomitable Spirit of Ancient Japan... a deep sense of obligation that drives the individual forward for the good of the nation. There are may ways to describe it.

Sorry, just rambling now.