Virtues of Bushido

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku

Well, as a matter of fact, not all samurai followed Bushido. In fact, there weren't many who did. So, he's right about the fact that Bushido and Chivalry are romantasized; however, these moral codes DID exist. Bushido was followed by ronin more often than not; chivalry by black knights. This is because the ronin and black knights followed only the orders they chose to follow, from whom, and so on. Feudal lords rarely followed Bushido themselves, and chose a foul victory over an honourable one. This is why regular samurai hated ronin and the common people loved them. Common people were often saved from lapdog-like samurai by ronin who followed Bushido. Again, very few samurai followed Bushido; but those who did were revered and considered the most righteous and honourable.

As with MartialMan, you are free to your opinion.
Nowhere did I say that all samurai or shogun followed bushido. However, to say that most didn't is also false. It amuses me that nobody seems to be capable of understanding that the truth rarely lies in extremes.
Just like the descendants of feudal lords, both Eastern and Western, will try to play up chivalry and bushido, so will the opponents of feudal rule try to downplay it. I merely presented the positive aspects of it.
Lastly, I would like to put this thought forward. Yes, samurai and knights were romanticized. So were the vikings, so were the Celts, so were the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Spartans, the Crusaders, the Saracens, the Navy SEALS, the free love advocates, the green berets, the Texas rangers, Jesse James and his gang, the list goes on. If it was a group that received attention, it was romanticized. This doesn't make the group evil. Very few groups of people, as a whole, were evil. Even the Germans, in WWII, were not evil as a whole. Rather, they had been well trained to follow orders and a minority of them who held very negative opinions happened to gain power and were very good at propaganda. The average German officer fought us because he believed we were monsters.
It is for this very reason that I strive to take a positive attitude about the world around us, and try to draw upon the positive aspects of history, in order to do my part to stem the tide of repeats of those negative actions.

[Akai Shizuku]

You're making alot of sense. I suppose the extremes aren't always correct...

[Xu Chu]

Not to be an ass or anything but bushido is just insane, hence why most modern Japanese Martial Art Schools exclude the study of bushido in their courses.
Ugly bits of bushido: Seppukku
and has anyone seen Letters from Iwo Jima? The Japanese blow themself with grenades when they thought their was no hope if they didn't maybe they would have put up a better fight.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

Not to be an ass or anything but bushido is just insane, hence why most modern Japanese Martial Art Schools exclude the study of bushido in their courses.
Ugly bits of bushido: Seppukku
and has anyone seen Letters from Iwo Jima? The Japanese blow themself with grenades when they thought their was no hope if they didn't maybe they would have put up a better fight.

It's funny that almost every statement that begins with "Not to be..." The person is going to be just that, and knows it.
Yes, Bushido has problems. So does every single other code of conduct in any culture.
Remember that movies are entertainment, not always historically accurate. There are grains of truth in movies, some larger than others. Using them as a basis for a historical argument, however, isn't very good logic.
And the Japanese put up an excellent fight considering the size of the country. In the end, to stave off more deaths from fighting against them, the US destroyed two cities. Despite the horrific nature of these attacks, I believe that the US actually saved not only American lives, but Japanese lives in the end. If the war had been allowed to continue, I believe that many more people would have died than died from the atomic bombs.

[Xu Chu]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

It's funny that almost every statement that begins with "Not to be..." The person is going to be just that, and knows it.
Yes, Bushido has problems. So does every single other code of conduct in any culture.
Remember that movies are entertainment, not always historically accurate. There are grains of truth in movies, some larger than others. Using them as a basis for a historical argument, however, isn't very good logic.
And the Japanese put up an excellent fight considering the size of the country. In the end, to stave off more deaths from fighting against them, the US destroyed two cities. Despite the horrific nature of these attacks, I believe that the US actually saved not only American lives, but Japanese lives in the end. If the war had been allowed to continue, I believe that many more people would have died than died from the atomic bombs.

are you trying to call me an ass because i expressed my opinions
on bushido? I only said the movie cuz that is something i expect more people to have seen than an article in a encyclopedia.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

are you trying to call me an ass because i expressed my opinions
on bushido? I only said the movie cuz that is something i expect more people to have seen than an article in a encyclopedia.

I was more trying to make a point. Whenever anyone starts something with that phrase ("not to be a..." followed by whatever they claim they're not trying to be), they know that they are being just that. It's kind of like saying "I'm sorry, but..." "I'm sorry" followed by "but" is never a real apology. Perhaps this is not the case with you.
However, to use a single, negative word to describe something. Then to say something that isn't true (many Japanese MA schools do study bushido. They have altered it for the times. Martial Arts and Philosophy are not static. If they were, there would be no point to them). Then to make another simple negative statement with no qualifiers. Then to finish with a reference to a movie that makes light of a country's fighting ability the single worst human-caused disaster ever. All of this does not make for a effective argument. It is more of an inflammatory statement.
Now, if you could explain why you think bushido is insane, we could begin an actual discussion about the topic. Without knowing your reasons for it, I have to make presumptions about them, which isn't good, and doesn't make for an effective discussion.

[Akai Shizuku]

I think that talking about atom bombs and who or not is an ass has nothing to do with the topic. I also believe that seppuku was the one part of Bushido that is best not followed. It's a waste, in my opinion, and there are always, ALWAYS better ways to redeem oneself than suicide. I myself follow Bushido, and I use one of its aspects (one must be wise), to combat its own principle of seppuku, with a succesful victory. Save seppuku, Bushido is an exellent moral code, and although it was romantisized, it is a great way to better oneself.

[Xu Chu]

Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku

I think that talking about atom bombs and who or not is an ass has nothing to do with the topic. I also believe that seppuku was the one part of Bushido that is best not followed. It's a waste, in my opinion, and there are always, ALWAYS better ways to redeem oneself than suicide. I myself follow Bushido, and I use one of its aspects (one must be wise), to combat its own principle of seppuku, with a succesful victory. Save seppuku, Bushido is an exellent moral code, and although it was romantisized, it is a great way to better oneself.

thats exactly what i've been trying to say it is waste, even charging crazy and killing in battles u can get 1 or 2 more enemies but just killing urself wit seppukku is like a form of giving up on ur chances.

and sirdarksol thats what i've been trying say about it negatives

[sirdarksol]

Akai, the only reason I brought the bombs up was because Xu Chu suggested that the Japanese did not put up much of a fight in WWII, and I wanted to remind him of what it took to end their participation in the war.

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

thats exactly what i've been trying to say it is waste, even charging crazy and killing in battles u can get 1 or 2 more enemies but just killing urself wit seppukku is like a form of giving up on ur chances.

and sirdarksol thats what i've been trying say about it negatives

Yes, you've been saying "It's bad and it's insane" but you haven't given reasons. Without reasons, this turns into a pointless argument, and we might as well not be having it.

Seppuku has nothing to do with fighting a lost cause. Seppuku has to do with fighting lost honor. As posted above, when a samurai (who actually cared about and followed bushido), faced a conundrum, a situation in which he had to violate one tenet or another (the most common example of this is one's master orders one to perform an unethical action), this allowed the samurai a way out.
If it is merely a matter of a single samurai facing a hundred men, he would either charge in or run away. The type of samurai that would charge in could do a massive amount of harm before dying, because he understood that he was already dead. The one who ran away is typically human. He forgot bushido, but it is a reaction that I can understand.

[Akai Shizuku]

I would be the charging kind. Again, I feel that a samurai could make up for his cowardice...And I do agree with you about most of your statements.

[Xu Chu]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Akai, the only reason I brought the bombs up was because Xu Chu suggested that the Japanese did not put up much of a fight in WWII, and I wanted to remind him of what it took to end their participation in the war.

Yes, you've been saying "It's bad and it's insane" but you haven't given reasons. Without reasons, this turns into a pointless argument, and we might as well not be having it.

please quote where i said the japanese did not put up much of fight in wwii.

read everything i've posted carefully before you post.
and my previous post has my reasons of why its insane.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

Not to be an ass or anything but bushido is just insane, hence why most modern Japanese Martial Art Schools exclude the study of bushido in their courses.
Ugly bits of bushido: Seppukku
and has anyone seen Letters from Iwo Jima? The Japanese blow themself with grenades when they thought their was no hope if they didn't maybe they would have put up a better fight.

One doesn't say "they would have put up a better fight" unless one thinks they didn't put up much of a fight.

I see here: "bushido is insane" "most modern Japanese Martial Art Schools exclude the study of bushido"
Negatives, but no reason for them.

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

I only said the movie cuz that is something i expect more people to have seen than an article in a encyclopedia.

I see no reason why you think bushido is "insane" here.

Originally Posted by Xu Chu

thats exactly what i've been trying to say it is waste, even charging crazy and killing in battles u can get 1 or 2 more enemies but just killing urself wit seppukku is like a form of giving up on ur chances.

and sirdarksol thats what i've been trying say about it negatives

Not much here, just a misunderstanding of what seppukku is.
Then you say that you've been saying negatives about bushido.

Saying "seppukku is bad" is not a logical argument, it's a blatant statement based on personal belief. When Akai wrote his opinion regarding bushido and, later, seppukku, he also gave reasons, logical explanations of why he felt that way. I may have disagreed with him, but at least there was something to discuss. We walked away from that discussion with, I think, two understandings: 1. We both agree that seppukku has no place in modern society. 2. We disagree in that I feel that seppukku had a place in medieval Japan and he feels that it has always been a waste. We may disagree, but we know each other's reasons for thinking so.
In this discussion, however, all I know is that you don't like bushido. I have no idea why, because you haven't really given any reasons.

[Akai Shizuku]

Thanks. What sirdarksol means is that it's okay to disagree, even good, if it builds up a logical and possibly philosophical discussion that leads to, ultimately, learning and understanding. Blatant statements only build up a pointless, go-nowhere argument that nobody profits from. Logical discussion is also much more comfortable and peaceful.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku

Thanks. What sirdarksol means is that it's okay to disagree, even good, if it builds up a logical and possibly philosophical discussion that leads to, ultimately, learning and understanding. Blatant statements only build up a pointless, go-nowhere argument that nobody profits from. Logical discussion is also much more comfortable and peaceful.

Dangit, another person who can paraphrase me in a few sentences.
Again, I'd rep you for this, but the forum deities demand that I pay homage to others before sending it to you again.

[Xu Chu]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

One doesn't say "they would have put up a better fight" unless one thinks they didn't put up much of a fight.

I see here: "bushido is insane" "most modern Japanese Martial Art Schools exclude the study of bushido"
Negatives, but no reason for them.

ok ok i need make a long post now to explain in detail what i think.
for the top one maybe i worded it badly i should i said they would have put up even more of a better fight"

bold is my reason.

ok
first kamekaze, a bunch of skilled pilots goes on a suicide mission. lemme ask you do you think this is not a waste of skilled pilots?
if they did fly back and refuel then wait for a new mission would it not have been better than throwing you and your plane onto the enemy

second seppukku, as we no japanese are not the only people who think losing a battle is a great disgrace.
vikings also did, but i do not think vikings are insane they die on the field even though when they are losing and have no chance of living they through themselves on the enemys <--- good idea.
but japanese when they are in a situation of almost no chances they immediately write a death poem have a feast, they start slicing their abdomens. <--- waste
thats my why bushido is a waste of warriors.

as for the insane bit.
even if you are to suicide, why slice your belly in such a creative way that causes so much pain and you only die of blood loss? and this is regarded the only 100% honorable way to die. Is that not insane to do things in this fashion?