Judo

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Draven

Depends in the Judo... Olympic/Sport Judo is very ineffective for self-defense...

Ever worked with an Olympic caliber athlete of ANY kind, much less an Olympic level Judoka?

I have.

You WILL get thrown on your ass. YOU WILL.

Thief Runs Out of Luck Trying to Carjack Van Full of Judo Team Members - 2002-08-20

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Ever worked with an Olympic caliber athlete of ANY kind, much less an Olympic level Judoka?

I have.

You WILL get thrown on your ass. YOU WILL.

Thief Runs Out of Luck Trying to Carjack Van Full of Judo Team Members - 2002-08-20

Joe, try finishing the sentance instead of running off when I say "Olympic/Sport Judo is very ineffective for self-defense compared to traditional judo." Its not a matter of whether nor not they throw me or personnal skill its a matter of practical application. You need more then throws and Olympic judo is not complete judo compared to Traditional Judo.

Sport Judo focuses more on Nage-Waza compared to traditional judo which has a good mix of other skills include besides the focus on throws. The fact that Kano tried to make judo a well rounded system is what seperated judo among so many different areas. Real judo is both sport, self-defense and philosophy.

I'm sorry if I see being incomplete as being inferior; but remember we are talking a self-defense situtation the ROE (rules of engagement) change with your environment. And we both agree having a more complete set of skills makes you a better fighter, now just a better tori.

Now it seem as here we see your agenda to pass off sport as total effectiveness. Its not... Yes, you have to train against a resisting opponent. Yes, a skilled opponent tests your abilities more so then unskilled one. But, the world full of amatuers and they are all unpredictable so you need a more balanced training format to be able to adapt. Also sport MAs don't hold the monopoly on resisting opponents.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Draven

Joe, try finishing the sentance instead of running off when I say "Olympic/Sport Judo is very ineffective for self-defense compared to traditional judo." Its not a matter of whether nor not they throw me or personnal skill its a matter of practical application. You need more then throws and Olympic judo is not complete judo compared to Traditional Judo.

Sport Judo focuses more on Nage-Waza compared to traditional judo which has a good mix of other skills include besides the focus on throws. The fact that Kano tried to make judo a well rounded system is what seperated judo among so many different areas. Real judo is both sport, self-defense and philosophy.

I'm sorry if I see being incomplete as being inferior; but remember we are talking a self-defense situtation the ROE (rules of engagement) change with your environment. And we both agree having a more complete set of skills makes you a better fighter, now just a better tori.

Now it seem as here we see your agenda to pass off sport as total effectiveness. Its not... Yes, you have to train against a resisting opponent. Yes, a skilled opponent tests your abilities more so then unskilled one. But, the world full of amatuers and they are all unpredictable so you need a more balanced training format to be able to adapt. Also sport MAs don't hold the monopoly on resisting opponents.

Draven,

Again, you speak in terms of absolutes when what you're really doing is voicing your opinion. Why do you do that? It makes it very difficult to have any kind of debate with you since you seem to have the opinion that your opinion is fact.

You do realize that what Kano did was filter down what he felt was ineffective in Jujitsu and the way it was being taught/trained. His idea was to take out anything that couldn't be easily replicated in training against a resisting opponent. The whole idea of "kill" moves was taken out. His opponents out there all told him EXACTLY what you say now:

You can't expect to train "safely" like that and be effective. The old jujitsu guys all scoffed at his ideas and felt superior because they were training for "real" combat.

So once Kano had established his school and got some students trained in his new methodology they openly challenged all the jujitsu schools in an open tournament.

Kano's guys swept the tournament all except 1 (I think it was 1). They repeatedly took the jujitsu guys out of their element and put them on their backs where the finished them quickly.

Next thing you know, everyone is taking Kodokan Judo. Now Kano HIMSELF works to get the art specialized into a national sport, one which can make Japan a powerhouse sports nation. He sends out emmisaries around the world to act as ambassadors both for Judo as well as for Japan (one of these guys ends up in Brazil and...well, you know the story).

Now, 100 years later Judo is an international sensation and Olympic sport. Jigaro Kano is considered one of if not the most influential Martial Artists in the last 100 or so years. All because he thought to take OUT some training methods, to make EFFICIENCY the means by which to improve training and effectiveness.

And here we are, 100 years later with you telling someone that sport judo sucks for self defense when compared to "real" judo?

LOL!

It's laughable bro. Your actual knowledge is lacking in this area, and your argument is illogical considering which art you're using as the instrument of your proof.

As I said before, Judo is an EXCELLENT training methodology that has proven itself time and time again for self defense across the board and for literally decades. It has been practiced by thousands of people around the world.

So, any advice taken about it's effectiveness would best be had by someone who has actually mastered it or at least worked with people who have mastered it. Otherwise, everything you are saying should begin with:

"The following commentary is based solely on my opinions which may or may not be based on reality or common sense. I like to read things which, in my world, means that I know things because where I come from reading = doing. Please take this to heed when reading any of my posts. And by the way, my example of a respectable Martial Artist is Ashida Kim."

This might help people get a better handle on you when coming here.

[Draven]

Joe,

Um... You do realize Kano didn't remove "killing moves" as you put it. They and their kata form where retained. The idea being that you could apply the escalation of violence principle; you learn techniques that aren't dangerious and can be practiced safely. You practice them and given proper mastery and understanding of those basic concepts you also learn more damaging variations of the "safer" techniques and learn so called "killing moves."

Sport judo was began as a educational exercise, its a watered down version of Kodokan judo that Kano used to teach Taoist (Do in Japanese) philosophy and physical exercise. So yes in comparision to Kodokan Judo sport judo isn't the same thing.

From: Judo: The Japanese Art of Self Defense
"Judo is taught under two methods, one called randori, and the other kata. Randori, or free exercise, is practiced under conditions of actual contest. It includes throwing, choking, holding down, and bending or twisting the opponent's arms or legs. The players may use whatever tricks they like, provided they do not hurt each other, and obey the general rules of Judo etiquette. Kata, which literally means form, is a formal system of prearranged exercises, including, besides the aforementioned actions, hitting and kicking and the use of weapons, according to rules under which each player knows beforehand exactly what his opponent is going to do.

The use of weapons and hitting and kicking is taught in kata and not in randori, because if these practices were resorted to in randori injury might well arise, while when taught in kata no injury is likely to happen as all the attacks and defenses are prearranged.

Randori may be practiced in various ways. If the object is simply the training in methods of attack and defense, the student's attention should be directed especially to the most efficient way of throwing, striking, kicking, bending, or twisting, without special reference to developing the body, or to mental or moral culture. But if the object is physical, mental, or moral culture, the training in methods of attack and defense may be confined to such phases of Judo as are necessary to this culture."

Now examining the above we two things first that judo included weapons, strikes and so forth and that randori was not the goal but the tool. Kodokan judo; yes true judo, is not about the competition or sport but physical exercices, mental exercises and morality in excuss of simple attack and defense...

Leaving the philosophic stuff aside; which was Kano's true goal, True Judo is fully the same as jujitsu. In fact Kano even stated as much.

From: The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano
"The object of this lecture is to explain to you in a general way what Judo is. In our feudal times, there were many military exercises such as fencing, archery, the use of spears, etc. Among them there was one called Jujutsu which was a composite exercise, consisting principally of the ways of fighting without weapons; using, however, occasionally daggers, swords and other weapons.

The kinds of attack were chiefly throwing, hitting, choking, holding the opponent down and bending or twisting the opponent's arms or legs in such a way as to cause pain or fracture. The use of swords and daggers was also taught. We had also multitudinous ways of defending ourselves against such attacks. Such exercise, in its primitive form, existed even in our mythological age. But systematic instruction, as an art, dates only from about three hundred fifty years ago.

In my younger days I studied this art with three eminent masters of the time. The great benefit I derived from the study of it led me to make up my mind to go on with the subject more seriously, and in 1882 I started a school of my own and called it Kodokan. Kodokan literally means a school for studying the way, the meaning of the way being the concept of life itself. I named the subject I teach Judo instead of Jujutsu. In the first place I will explain to you the meaning of these words. Ju means gentle or to give way, Jutsu, an art or practice, and Do, way or principle, so that Jujutsu means an art or practice of gentleness or of giving way in order to ultimately gain the victory; while Judo means the way or principle of the same.

Can this principle be applied to other fields of human activity? Yes, the same principle can be applied to the improvement of the human body, making it strong, healthy and useful, and so constitutes physical education. It can also be applied to the improvement of intellectual and moral power, and in this way constitutes mental and moral education. It can at the same time be applied to the improvement of diet, clothing, housing, social intercourse, and methods of business, thus constituting the study and training in living. I gave this all-pervading principle the name of "Judo". So Judo, in its fuller sense, is a study and method in training of mind and body as in the regulation of life and affairs. "

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Jason

Depends on your progress, my instructor stuck me in a brown belt/ black belt competition after half a years worth of training, got my arse handed to me, but it's the experience that counts really.

Yeah... My instructor used to have me randori against higher belts, its helps you learn your own weakness allot better.

Originally Posted by serge1234

Depends on your progress, my instructor stuck me in a brown belt/ black belt competition after half a years worth of training, got my arse handed to me, but it's the experience that counts really.

Believe it or not you can learn a few effective techniques in a matter of weeks about a month, course thats assuming a 5 hrs training week and how hard you apply yourself. When I started I started with Ukemi (falling and rolling) and to be honest thats the skill that has helped me the best.

[Joemoplata]

LOL @ coming back with stuff taken from Kano! That's so ironic it's almost not funny.

And yet it is.

Have a good Thanksgiving Draven!

I stick with my original post to dangermouse:

Judo will do you well bro, stick with it.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Draven

Yeah... My instructor used to have me randori against higher belts, its helps you learn your own weakness allot better.

I'm doing the adults class where I am the youngest, the smallest and the least experience. But that's the lesson where I really push myself. And get my butt kicked. I just came back about ten minutes ago. I am sore.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

LOL @ coming back with stuff taken from Kano! That's so ironic it's almost not funny.

And yet its the most accurate... Especially since that it proves my point "sport judo is ineffective compared to the origional Kodokan judo system." I never said either was ineffective just that one looks ineffective compared to other, not that the entirity of either system is ineffective. Amazing how quick you were to overlook that point

Like I said I'm thankful for adversity, Happy Thanksgiving...

[Militis]

There were two Judo threads asking similar questions and both had the same title. Merged.