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Styles: TKD, Tang Soo Do, Kenpo, Hapkido, JKD Concepts
Posts: 1,683
Home Country:
I'll just use my gun to shoot in a non lethal place like the knee cap or the foot
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"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to go to his class."
- Choi, Hong Hi, Founder of Taekwon-Do
The black belt is not a mark or symbol of the end of the journey to ones mastery of the arts; rather it is the mark that one is done packing for their journey and may now take the first step in their true journey. This a journey which can not ever be complete, only traveled..."
Jason, if the dude was shirtless you would be too busy getting his number to worry about what throw you were going to use.
ZING!!
Most throws put the opponent on their back not on their head. You have WAY more chance of controlling the rate of someone's fall from a throw than you do delivering a KO and they fall over like a log.
How many times a year do you hear of being dying from being hit and they crack their head vs being tossed onto their head?
How many times a year do boxers die in the ring from concussive injuries vs judokas being killed from a throw in competition?
Trust me, Judo enables you the ability to control the amount of aggression needed to end a fight way more than a striking art does.
The differnce is joe your throwing someone who isn't used to being thrown and can't breakfall which means as i have seen personally they land on thier head , espcially when they don't see it coming , also the big thing that will increase injury is the fact your throwing on concrete which is a big injury giver compared to mats. The boxing argument is also flawed because when it bareknuckle on the street it will end much quicker so you will not get as severe injuries from the pronlonging blows unless there is a big weight/strength differnce between the fighters.
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Many a man's mouth has broken his nose. - Irish proverb
My guruma is better than my grammar
"My left hand is made out of Iron my right out of steel if one don't get you the other one will"
Again it comes down to the training. A good Judoka can control the amount of force exerted in a fall. A bad Judoka would just let them drop.
A good striker can control where and when and how hard he hits to a large degree, and can indeed stop them hitting the ground hard on a K.O in alot of cases. A bad striker just punches till the opponent dies.
As to the tournament examples of boxers V Judoka.
I would point out Judoka are TRAINED to take falls, as are Karateka and pretty much any martial artist. If well trained, such as to compatition level the likelyhood of them taking a strike hard enough to vital body areas when they land is greatly reduced and they are landing on a matted surface which reduced the ftlbs/s/s/sq inch impact pressure.
On the flip side a boxer can't be trained not to take concussive damage when they take a fist up the tooter (nose), and the weight gloves despite reducing soft tissue damage do increase the ft/lbs of force being exerted into a head. There is no training to stop a concussive shockwave from damaging your brain.
An unfair and slightly biased example, but I shall admit the best readily avaliable one.
I still contest that on the street a striker has more options of less dangerous (to the opponent) techniques, if they are not willing to resort to techniques that have the risk of killing the opponent.
Also Judoka AIM to throw people onto their backs, a struggling, flailing, arm swining, no breakfall idiot on the street could easily force his head round onto the ground by accident...
I know when I started judo, I did the break falls, and during a particular throw lost my head a bit and did something wrong and landed on my neck not my back. ((Luckily I switched back to Karate breakfalls, rolled my shoulders, and transmited the force rather than taking it through my neck.))
I think we already said if you train in judo for street fight it was very useful. Also a person who is very good with there judo throwing can control how hard, where, and on what body part they throw there opponent. Though I think it is important that anyone who practices a throwing art for self defense should also know something about strikling. It can often help top set up your throw and you have to get around it if you are going to throw, atleast most of the time.
Guys with ZERO grappling experience shouldn't be weighing in on how lethal or brutal grappling techniques are vs striking techniques. Trust me when I say I could take my sweet time in a fight with you inflicting as little punishment as I wish and still come out ahead. You cannot do this with striking. To think that you can is ridiculous and so freakin contradictory to the BS I hear on this forum everyday about
"Well I'll just KO you on your way in with a knee"
and
"Well grappling only works in the ring cause on the street I can gouge your eyes or elbow the back of your head"
I mean come on, make up your mind! One minute we don't know anything about a real fight because we aren't bad ass enough to know how to bite or gouge thhe next minute our sport is too rough to use in the streets because we'd be smashing everyone's head open with the throws.
Seriously, you guys are all over the place!!! It's freakin ridiculous.
Lock this thread, I can see that I'm going to end up getting ****ty with some people real quick on this one.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Styles: Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Karate, Aikido, Judo, Tae Kwon Do
Posts: 1,430
Home Country:
Joe, you are right and you are wrong at the same time. Strikers CAN do a very good job of controlling the amount of punishment they dish out. Or at least, they should be able to . We spend a LOT of time learning control, as a rule. I'd even say that I can do that AND still come out ahead.
I dont make any claims to the contrary with regards to grappling arts, or any claims that we can do it any better.. Just pointing out that we can do it ALSO.
and I am SURE that that is what the other strikers who were chiming in meant to say, right guys?
*looks intimidating*
Joe, you are right and you are wrong at the same time. Strikers CAN do a very good job of controlling the amount of punishment they dish out. Or at least, they should be able to . We spend a LOT of time learning control, as a rule. I'd even say that I can do that AND still come out ahead.
I dont make any claims to the contrary with regards to grappling arts, or any claims that we can do it any better.. Just pointing out that we can do it ALSO.
and I am SURE that that is what the other strikers who were chiming in meant to say, right guys?
*looks intimidating*
There is no way that by throwing punches you can expect to have the same amount of control over the aggression in an attack as you can with grappling. Of course someone can pull punches, that's not what I'm saying though. My points are simply:
1. All I ever hear from strikers on why grappling is no good for street fights is because of all the damage that can be inflicted without rules which is completely contradictory to what is now being said.
2. The idea that throwing punches or kicks of any kind is going to inflict LESS damage to an opponent than taking them down and controlling them on the grouns is absurd. Obviously the risk of damage to the opponent goes up with strikes being thrown. There's really no logical argument against this notion.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Styles: Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Karate, Aikido, Judo, Tae Kwon Do
Posts: 1,430
Home Country:
I 100% agree with you on #2. Nothing controls a fight better than having the other guy pinned down or otherwise subdued. He cannot move to injure you, and you can generally do it without injuring him.
Anyone disagreeing with that point is just being foolish.
I dont really agree with you on point 1. I DO still believe that striking arts would be better in a street environment, but we are never going to agree on that one, I suspect I am happy to agree to disagree with you. That said, I dont find it contradictory to say that just because striking can be incredibly brutal doesnt mean that it cant NOT be as well. Now, throwing grappling arts into the mix... I vote that throws are POTENTIALLY more dangerous/deadly than strikes. You guys spend all your time learning to make them less deadly, so in a real world situation you are unlikely to use them in such a way that would cause death/permanent disability. However you certainly COULD. I think it is HARDER to do this with grappling than with striking, but a bad landing from a throw, I think, would be way way worse than most any strikes could pull off. It is just an even more low-percentage move for you guys than the deadly strikes are for us.
1.Joe is right (shock) that in a real situation striking is more dangerous because you aim to hurt someone I don't see how you can be an effective striker by pulling punches and not trying to cause damage/drop someone. Though it is easy to throw light punches, it will put you in trouble in a real fight. If they are as good as you and you hold back when they don't you will almost certainly lose.
2.Throwing is dangerous on the street just as much as striking, though I think you need both!
3.Joe has another point (he is on a roll) it is much eaiser to control a single opponent winning a fight without having to hurt them if you take it to the ground and control them. This is why my friend paul likes to use his BJJ to in his own words 'I like to make people look like b**ches on the ground.'
4.I would just like to point this out but joe admitted that striking is more effective when you really try and hurt someone with it. *claps* (so proud)
5.One last thing I'd like to say though ground can damage to and an arm bar when you are not looking for a tap or surrender is a broken arm.
Erm... I strike and grapple, so an do I agree with?
Me I said good things about both. AND I HAVE COOKIES!
On a serious note when it comes to this kind of thing I don't think you have to agree with anyone if you opinion does not 100% match another person just give your own opinion half agree if you think only half is true.
4.I would just like to point this out but joe admitted that striking is more effective when you really try and hurt someone with it. *claps* (so proud)
I didnt see this written anywhere. I believe he was saying that you can control someone without hurting them in grappling if you choose to, whereas you cant strike someone without inflicting some type of damage. Obviously you can seriously hurt someone in striking and grappling.
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Judo for the Street?
I am happy to agree to disagree with you. That said, I dont find it contradictory to say that just because striking can be incredibly brutal doesnt mean that it cant NOT be as well. Now, throwing grappling arts into the mix... I vote that throws are POTENTIALLY more dangerous/deadly than strikes. You guys spend all your time learning to make them less deadly, so in a real world situation you are unlikely to use them in such a way that would cause death/permanent disability. However you certainly COULD. I think it is HARDER to do this with grappling than with striking, but a bad landing from a throw, I think, would be way way worse than most any strikes could pull off. It is just an even more low-percentage move for you guys than the deadly strikes are for us.
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