Conditioning for Judo

[Zynasty G]

Joemplata,

I don't disagree that there are other exercises outside the dojo that Norton can use to increase his conditioning. It is a fair point to make. If anyone can give Norton scientifically proven methods [that are specific to the type of fitness he needs for judo] to use in the gym and communicate them clearly enough so he can use them properly, then this is great, go for it.

The problem I've seen, with gym related exercises that aren't designed specifically by a conditioning expert familar with the requirements of judo or a top judo coach is that they are often counter productive to judo. Generally they will slow you down. Things like sprints, o-lifts, clap pushups etc will develop the kind of explosive power you need for judo, but the majority of standard gym exercises you'd get even from a personal trainer won't. They'll build the wrong type of muscle, make you less flexible and slow you down.

I took from his initial thread post that he'd just started training in judo, and was finding the intensity difficult. To me the answer to this problem is to build up judo specific fitness. For a beginner, I'd be suggesting doing more of the same exercises he does in judo as I described above.

I have no issue with doing additional exercises outside the dojo for conditioning, my opinion is that you just need to ensure they are the right exercises.

Hope that clarifies my thoughts

Zynasty G

[Joemoplata]

Zynasty,

I SORT OF agree with your points here. Yes, there are specific types of exercises that can help with the conditioning Norton is looking for for grappling. And I specifically attempted to address those particular types in my post to him, anaerobic types of exercises designed to increase lactic acid threshold as well as increasing resting heart rate.

The part that I am going to slightly disagree with is this:

They'll build the wrong type of muscle, make you less flexible and slow you down.

This could be the oldest myth in our little world of Martial Arts. There are only two types of muscle:

Fast twitch and slow twitch (this isn't precisely true but it fits for the purpose of this argument. Galaktia will back me on this I think). The percentage of these muscles varies between people, but the average is around a 50/50 ratio. Slow twitch muscles are your aerobic muscles..the ones that are very good at operating using oxygen as the energy source. Basically, they can go for a long time before tiring but are slow.

Fast twitch muscles use anerobic mechanisms to operate and are not as efficient as slow twitch muscles. They are good for explosive burts. It's a myth that these are "stronger" than slow twitch, they aren't but they contract faster so they are useful for explosive burts requiring speed.

Muscle hypertrophy, or "body building" for the purposes of this discussion, is the idea of making your muscles bigger using strength training. The science behind this effect is complicated and too detailed for this argument, but let's just say that in general hypertrophy is happening to the fast twitch muscles. So you are theoretically increasing the size of these muscles, making them better at performing their job: explosive contraction.

Are you saying that having explosive contraction isn't useful for grappling? I would argue that point for sure.

Also, the idea that you can't have big muscles and be flexible is also a complet myth. Reference Ronnie Coleman, famous bodybuilder who could do the splits with ease. If done correctly you can be big and flexible.

As for slowing you down to have bigger muscles. Let's not forget, it was the fast twitch muscles I was increasing so how would that slow me down? Slow me down how? Have you ever seen a sprinter? They're pretty muscular.

THe problem here is that you are mixing up a bit of science with a bit of myth and coming to a conclusion that is not necessarily true. The reason why many big, muscular guys are slow, inflexible and have terrible cardio isn't because you can't be both.

It's because it's HARD to be both. In order to perform muscle hypertrophy, you have to really dedicate your workouts and diet to the task. You have to increase your mass and dedicate your caloric intake towards the job of feeding the anabolic process. This is almost the exact opposite of what you have to do in order to improve your cardiovascular capabilities. So guys who are looking to get big in the gym aren't going to be doing cardio workouts usually. Inversely, a marathon runner isn't going to increase his mass because having more mass is harder for his heart to supply oxygen to his muscles.

I can tell you that pro level fighters, and world champion level Judokas and BJJ practicioners are training in ways that are efficient at performing multiple tasks with the workout, and if you want to get that type of workout out of what you're doing then you are going to need to train like they do.

[Zynasty G]

Joemoplata,

I think the disagreement here, is based on us assuming two different objectives for conditioning. One a beginner level conditioning and the other an elite level conditioning.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here, and I definitely agree that an elite athlete, pro level fighter etc can and should be doing a separate strength and conditioning training program to supplement their sport or martial art orientated training. I am not at that level, and you sound like you've got more knowledge about this than me.

From Norton's initial post about beginning judo, and asking about how to break out of hold-downs etc I took that his question was more about moving up from an unconditioned beginner level to a level of conditioning suitable for a kyu grade player, maybe training a few days a week.
And thus my answer was based on that assumption, and I wasn't intending to provide an answer about how to get the conditioning of an elite level pro-fighter.

When I stated: "They'll build the wrong type of muscle, make you less flexible and slow you down." - and specifically 'type of muscle' I wasn't intending to refer just to fast and slow switch muscle. My terminology may not have been clear, but I was also referring to excessive muscle on parts of the body that are not suitable for the speed, agility and explosive power of judo. Eg. Rather than doing a compound exercise to train multiple muscle groups and neurological pathways to work together, someone who doesn't have expert knowledge, might go to the gym and do something like isolated bicep curls in order to 'get stronger' and more 'conditioned'.
Carrying the extra weight of excessive muscle like that, and training muscles for eg. in isolation, and basically not doing suitable exercises for the judo will very likely result in the player being heavier and slower. Unless the person is sticking religiously to stretching properly, - which most people at the gym don't - then they'll likely also become less flexible.

So, while I'm not suggesting in any way that a properly designed strength training program would be unsuitable, it is my view that a beginner judoka would be more suited to keeping to judo related exercises. [Unless they are very knowledgeable and know exactly what they are doing with a separate strength training and conditioning program]. It is also my view that you can't get conditioned for judo without actually playing judo. By this I particularly mean without doing randoori, you won't be conditioned for it simply by doing a separate conditioning program. So my advice for someone who is starting out about how to get conditioned for judo is to play more judo, and do more of the same exercises you do at the dojo, in your own individual training.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Zynasty G

Joemoplata,

I think the disagreement here, is based on us assuming two different objectives for conditioning. One a beginner level conditioning and the other an elite level conditioning.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here, and I definitely agree that an elite athlete, pro level fighter etc can and should be doing a separate strength and conditioning training program to supplement their sport or martial art orientated training. I am not at that level, and you sound like you've got more knowledge about this than me.

From Norton's initial post about beginning judo, and asking about how to break out of hold-downs etc I took that his question was more about moving up from an unconditioned beginner level to a level of conditioning suitable for a kyu grade player, maybe training a few days a week.
And thus my answer was based on that assumption, and I wasn't intending to provide an answer about how to get the conditioning of an elite level pro-fighter.

When I stated: "They'll build the wrong type of muscle, make you less flexible and slow you down." - and specifically 'type of muscle' I wasn't intending to refer just to fast and slow switch muscle. My terminology may not have been clear, but I was also referring to excessive muscle on parts of the body that are not suitable for the speed, agility and explosive power of judo. Eg. Rather than doing a compound exercise to train multiple muscle groups and neurological pathways to work together, someone who doesn't have expert knowledge, might go to the gym and do something like isolated bicep curls in order to 'get stronger' and more 'conditioned'.
Carrying the extra weight of excessive muscle like that, and training muscles for eg. in isolation, and basically not doing suitable exercises for the judo will very likely result in the player being heavier and slower. Unless the person is sticking religiously to stretching properly, - which most people at the gym don't - then they'll likely also become less flexible.

So, while I'm not suggesting in any way that a properly designed strength training program would be unsuitable, it is my view that a beginner judoka would be more suited to keeping to judo related exercises. [Unless they are very knowledgeable and know exactly what they are doing with a separate strength training and conditioning program]. It is also my view that you can't get conditioned for judo without actually playing judo. By this I particularly mean without doing randoori, you won't be conditioned for it simply by doing a separate conditioning program. So my advice for someone who is starting out about how to get conditioned for judo is to play more judo, and do more of the same exercises you do at the dojo, in your own individual training.

I believe in giving the novice the expert advice based on my own experiences, I guess that is the difference. I don't believe in half assing it, if you're going to do it then do it. So if the question is how can I better my conditioning for grappling, then the answer is you're going to need to work your ass off in the gym and on the mats to get the best results.

So you're right, it's not a difference of opinion so much as a different perspective I think.