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I have to go with Tri on this one (surprised? lol). Landing on your back is not certain death. I'm actually kind of surprised to hear you say that.
The idea of the ippon throw came much later in the development of Judo. Don't forget that Kano worked very hard to make Judo a national and international sport and the rules of competition had very little to do with combat practicality and much more to do with the excitement for spectators.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Could you explain why landing on your back woul be virtual sudden death? Granted, laying on the ground in the middle of a battle probably isn't the best place to be, but virtual certain death? What am I missing?
I read that it is because if your opponent is lying on the ground on his back then this gives the attacker huge options to stab etc. like i say i have read this from books, ill try and find some and tell you guys, i may be wrong but im just going off what i have learnt
Ok i looked it up and this is what i have found just off the web
Judo: A Modification of Traditional Jujutsu
During the Meiji Restoration of 1868, as his country distanced itself from the violent culture of its once-powerful Samurai class, a dedictated student of traditional jujutsu named Jigoro Kano decided to “repackage” traditional jujutsu as a form of physical education that would retain jujutsu’s combative techniques and couple them with an underlying philosophy that reflected Japan’s unique culture.
Judo Principle #1: Maximum Benefit Through Minimum Effort
Kano was a small man, so he adapted his favourite jujutsu techniques to exploit the principles of balance and leverage while minimizing the importance of strength. This formed the first principle of judo philosophy: “maximum benefit through minimum effort”.
Judo Principle #2: Mutual Welfare and Benefit
To fulfill his second principle of “mutual welfare and benefit”, Kano removed dangerous techniques like dislocation throws, atemi waza (pressure point strikes), and twisting leglocks from randori (open practice), but preserved them through kata. The result was a complete combat system that could be practiced relatively safely even at full force.
Jujutsu Becomes Judo
In Japan, the “martial arts” (bujutsu) are the traditional battlefield combat systems (self protection), while the “martial ways” (budo) use those same skills as a path to personal improvement (self perfection). Since Kano’s techniques shared similar principles with traditional jujutsu, he kept the prefix “ju” (roughly translating to “soft”), but changed the “jutsu” suffix to “do” to reflect the slight alteration in philosophy. Essentially, he used the principles of battlefield-oriented jujutsu to create something more “socially acceptable”.
The Kodokan Proves Judo’s Effectiveness
Kano established the Kodokan Judo Institute in 1882 and immediately began testing judo’s effectiveness. Angry that Kano had stepped away from jujutsu’s secretive traditions and had borrowed their techniques, many jujutsu schools were out for his head. So the Kodokan competed in a legendary series of tournaments across Japan, which culminated in their 1886 victory over Hikosuke Totsuka’s jujutsu school.
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Being a hapkido practitioner you should know this as well as I do. For someone versed in rolling and falling it is relative easy to regain your feet when thrown on your back. Added to this, if you are on your back then your vision is clear to see anything (weapon) or anyone (attacker) coming at you. Being thrown on your back in the middle of a melee type of combat would not mean certain death anymore than getting locked into combat with one opponent. It would limit your movement a bit more than staying on your feet and therefore not exactly desireable, but it would be far from a certain fatal mistake. If you read this, you absorbed it without really thinking about it critically.
03yougd, the info you posted is all accurate and does not reflect a philosophy of "throw = kill". As I was saying, the idea of the ippon came with the growing the sport and concentrating on the excitement elements of a match and turning the focus on the throw.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Reforming Jujitsu
It was during these early jujitsu training days Jigoro Kano worked out some new throws and turned his attention more and more to ways of reforming jujitsu into some kind of new system. While practicing at the Tenjin-shinyo Training Hall, he ran up against a big, 200-pound bruiser named Kenkichi Fukushima. Outweighed by 100 pounds, the lightweight youth invariably lost to the bigger man. He wanted to beat Fukushima so badly he could taste it, studying everything he could get his hands on -- books on sumo techniques, training books from abroad, etc.
Finally, Jigoro worked out a new technique. The next time he met his burly rival he charged in low, lifted Fukushima onto his shoulders, whirled him around and easily tossed him on the mat. He promptly dubbed his new throw "kata-guruma," or shoulder whirl. Other throws he worked out include "uki-goshi" (rising hip throw) and "tsuri-komi-goshi" (lift-pull hip throw).
The original idea was merely to reform jujitsu rather than found a new system. Kano was well aware of the shortcomings, but felt these could be weeded out with the result that jujitsu could be beneficial to young men -- not only as a martial art, but also as a form of physical education as well as training and discipline of the spirit; in short, a valuable preparation for one's daily life.
He dedicated himself to formulating a system of reformed jujitsu founded on scientific principles, integrating combat training with mental and physical education. He borrowed the "katamewaza" (mat techniques) and "atemi-waza" (throwing techniques) of Kito-ryu, holding onto those techniques that conformed to scientific principles and rejecting all others.
03yougd, the info you posted is all accurate and does not reflect a philosophy of "throw = kill". As I was saying, the idea of the ippon came with the growing the sport and concentrating on the excitement elements of a match and turning the focus on the throw.
I understand this and i shall admit that i am probably wrong i am just simply relaying what i have read about that matter, and to Luns post i personally believe it is quite easy to find easy ground from being on my back but the thing about sudden death scenario i have just read in books, not my personal opinion.
What i meant by that post was the fact that kano created for more personal well being purposes therefore taking out the dangerous joint locks etc. which was relaying back to the initial topic
Bear hug in Judo
Linear Mode
