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Hello everyone. This is my first thread in this forum and I would like to share an interesting post I read from a blog. Enjoy!
Authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-doby Adrian Hoe
What is authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do?
The authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do practices traditional Okinawan karate-do and can easily be distinguished by kata, stances and training methods. The kata curriculum of authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do is as followed:
Pinan (shodan, nidan, sandan, yondan and godan), Naihanchi (Shodan, Nidan, Sandan), Passai Gwa are taught as co-curriculum.
There is a non-authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do in Malaysia which does not hold any lineage. It merely pirates the name and teaches Shotokan-cloned kata. Its has no proper teaching in techniques and training methods. The instructors lack of proper karate and kata knowledge. They don’t even know the meaning of “Ryu” (style or school), lineage and kata.
The clone practices:
* Taikyokushodan
* Heian shodan, nidan, sandan, yondan and godan
* Tekki, shodan, nidan and sandan
* Bassai-dai
* Bassai-sho
* Kanku-dai
* Kanku-sho
* Seisan
* Hangetsu
* Wanshu
* Seienchin
* Enpi
* and just to name a few.
According to the kata, it is clearly Shotokan flavored. In particular, both Enpi and Hangetsu is unique in Shotokan.
Hangetsu is Shotokan version of Seisan based on Arakaki no Seisan. Hangetsu-dachi is Shotokan’s version of Sanchin-dachi. The clone teaches both Hangetsu and Matsumura no Seisan. This version of Seisan is uniquely distinguishable in authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Matsumura no Seisan predominantly features the stance Shiko-dachi (common in Tomari-te kata) accompanying a block which often sets up a powerful pivot and punch into Zenkutsu-dachi.
Shotokan does not practice Wanshu. Instead, Enpi is Shotokan’s unique version of Wanshu. Why both Wanshu and Enpi? The Wanshu that the clone teaches is similar to the authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan’s Wanshu. This version of Wanshu is unique and can only be found in authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Where is the origin of the clone Shorin-ryu Seibukan’s Wanshu? Moreover, the clone’s Wanshu has many mistakes and missing steps.
The kata are all mixed up. The founder of the clone Shorin-ryu Seibukan obviously does not understand the ryu system and the kata representing the ryu. In addition, all these kata are deviated from the pure Shotokan kata. It is better to train a pure and proper Shotokan system rather than this impure clone. Why waste your effort, money and time learning the clone, deviated and adulterated Shorin-ryu Seibukan?
I once asked a Sandan black belt why the clone is using the name of Shorin-ryu Seibukan but teaching Shotokan clone. He told me the founder wanted to commemorate his teacher, Shimabukuro Sensei. That’s the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard. How could someone commemorate his teacher by using the name but not teaching his teacher’s knowledge? This man is very unintelligent and he is a professional lawyer in practice!
How to differentiate the authentic and the bogus?
It’s difficult for a beginner and people without proper karate knowledge to differentiate the authentic from the bogus base upon kata and techniques. There is an easy way to recognize the true identity even so. All Shorin-ryu Seibukan dojo throughout the world are using the same logo. Because of Malaysian government policy, Malaysia dojo is the only country using the romanized logo with special authorization and permission from Shimabukuro Hanshi. Only authorized and charted dojo are permitted to use these logos/patches. The bogus Shorin-ryu Seibukan is using logo/patch other than the original. It is easily distinguishable in the logo/patch they are wearing.
I know these obstinate sapheads from this clone Shorin-ryu are watching my blog.
I’ve wasted 20 years in this debased Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Unless you want to continue to be an ignorant fool and wasting your life time training this impure clone style, don’t border about this article. Anyone interested to find out the true authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do, please visit the website. There are authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do classes available here in Melaka.
I remember when I was posted to Germany 6 years ago, and I was training under this International Shorin-ryu Seibukan Karate. I was very keen in karate and I always wanted to go to Japan to further my study of karate. I asked my instructor where was our honbu in Japan. He told me that Malaysia was the honbu managing the Germany branches. I was suspicious that someone was trying to keep some secrets.
A year later, I was transferred to UK where I was introduced to Shotokan. I realized the kata was very similar like you mentioned in your post. This ignited my curiosity to investigate further. During one summer, I attended a Shotokan seminar. I met Kato Sensei, chief instructor of IJKA Europe. I got to learn more about the history of Shotokan and kata together with other styles such as Shorin-ryu from other sensei.
On one occasion, I was on travel to Williamsburg, Virginia and I visited Shorin-ryu Shorinkan dojo. This was the first time I saw the real Shorin-ryu system. After that, I got a chance to travel to Washington for a business conference. I visited the real Shorin-ryu Seibukan at Freeland. It was an eye opener for me.
IMO, it is very true that one must learn the true karate as it is a life time learning process. True karate knowledge can only be found in proper lineage. I absolutely agree with you that learning karate without proper lineage is a waste of effort and time.
I am still practicing Shotokan. I wanted to learn more about Shorin-ryu Seibukan but due to my work and time constraint, I can only think about it later.
It is nice reading your blog. You have style of your own and I like your critiques and research in kata especially about Seienchin. Good work and keep it up. I will come back often.
Adrian HoeSaturday, October 28, 2006 11:13
Dear Elena,
Thank you for your message. I am indeed very happy to hear that you are on the right training. There are many bogus karate schools out there. Unfortunately, not many people knows how to choose a good school to train. Unscrupulous people are exploiting public ignorance to capitalization.
I hope you will use your true karate knowledge to help rectify this problem so that people will not get cheated. I always tell my students to verify whatever people say to them and that including mine. I hope one day, karate will be more proper and more traditional.
Elena A. FedotovaSaturday, October 28, 2006 14:00
Dear Adrian,
I have seen you updated your post. What an irony! I really like your spirit of speaking out the truth and your feelings.
I will always remind myself about your effort to a better karate.
ridzuanSaturday, October 28, 2006 18:22
Hi Adrian,
Bingo! You did it again. I think your post has the most damaging effects on this clone.
Yes, you are right. Hangetsu and Enpi are Shotokan’s unique version of Seisan and Wanshu respectively.
Regards,
Adrian HoeSaturday, October 28, 2006 20:13
Dear ridzuan,
Selamat Hari Raya.
So, you are Shotokan, aren’t you?
Agata DrobiszewskaSunday, October 29, 2006 1:52
Dear Adrian,
I am Agata from Torun, Poland. I read your blog with delight. I am researching about which karate should I learn. Your post has warned me about bogus karate. But I am still not sure what is “ryu”? Could you explain “ryu” in details?
When searching for a dojo, what should a beginner look for?
There are Shorin-ryu and Shotokan karate in Torun. I am not sure if this Shorin-ryu is Seibukan. I doubt so. Which style should I choose?
Thank you.
Adrian HoeSunday, October 29, 2006 12:45
Dear Agata,
It’s great to hear that you are taking up karate.
When you are looking for a dojo, ask whether the dojo has proper lineage (not affiliation). In general, a dojo will be awarded an authorization and chartered certificate from the world headquarters in Japan. Check with the honbu in Japan if the instructor is properly certified. It is easy to “buy” certificate nowadays. Ask who is the country chief instructor of the school and where is the country honbu dojo. Ask for contacts and make some calls to verify.
Next, you will want to visit the dojo to see how they train. Ask if there is demo classes which you can join for free to see if you like their training.
Shorin-ryu is a very traditional Okinawan system. It does not evolve very much like other Japanese karate such as Shotokan. SHorin-ryu still features smaller and higher stances while Shotokan uses long and deep stance. They both have their own benefits and disadvantages.
It doesn’t matter which system you are training as long as it is authentic. After you obtain your black belt and have a good understanding of your system, you may want to train other styles. As I mentioned above, every style has their own unique advantages and disadvantages. All these styles actually complement each other nicely. A good understanding of these systems will complete your training.
I hope you will enjoy your karate training and make it your life-time passion.
Z powazaniem,
Agata DrobiszewskaMonday, October 30, 2006 23:31
Dzień dobry,
Do you know to speak polski?
Adrian HoeMonday, October 30, 2006 23:39
Dzień dobry,
No, I don’t. I only know a few words. I have a friend in Poznan and I learned some words from him when I visited him some years back. When he visited me, he taught me some polski but soon I forgot because I had no one to talk to in polski.
dbają,
Alvin TanWednesday, November 1, 2006 11:13
Hi Adrian,
Your post has enlightened me. I had trained MSSKA for years and I had a feeling that it’s not a pure Shorin-ryu. Everytime I saw my sister doing her Shotokan kata, my mind wandered: “Why is my kata so similar to her Shotokan?”
I want to ditch this fake Shorin-ryu but where can I find the authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan dojo in Seremban? I am interested to join. I am 5th kyu and I have stopped for 4 years. Can I continue from 5th kyu? Do I have to start over again?
Thank you!
Adrian HoeWednesday, November 1, 2006 12:02
Hello Alvin,
Thank you for reading my blog. I am glad that my posts have enlightened you and I am very happy to hear that you have understood and found the truth. The biggest challenge for a karate-ka is pride and ego. I would say you have separated yourself from those sapheads by overcoming your pride and ego and accepted the true facts.
Our chief instructor, Pathmanathan Sensei is currently training some instructors for Negeri Sembilan. Once they have completed their training, they will open dojo in Seremban and Nilai. Please check my blog and Shorin-ryu Seibukan website (http://seibukan.org.my) for updates.
No. You don’t have to start all over again. You can continue from 5th Kyu but under one condition that you must learn and cover all syllabus from 10th kyu to 4th Kyu in order for you to take your 4th Kyu test.
I look forward to training with you. We welcome you to join the true Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Please keep close contact with me.
Agata DrobiszewskaWednesday, November 1, 2006 15:19
Dzień dobry,
Certainly it is not Shorin-ryu Seibukan. The patch is different. I asked the instructor and it is called Ohsu Kai. But I think I will sign up. I watch their training and it is very intersting.
Poznan is quite near to Torun.
dbają,
Adrian HoeWednesday, November 1, 2006 15:27
Dzień dobry,
It’s Shorin-ryu Shorinkan. Both Katsuya Miyahira and Shuguro Nakazato are world famous grand sensei and they are national treasures of Japan/Okinawa. I will say: Go for it!
Yes, indeed we wanted to go to Torun and Gdansk the last time we visited Poland but due to time constraint and I had an appointment in Vienna, we had to called off the trip. May be next time we will visit Torun.
dbają,
Agata DrobiszewskaThursday, November 2, 2006 22:36
Dzień dobry,
Yes, you’re right. It’s Shorin-ryu Shorinkan. I will start my training next week for one month (free) then I will decide to commit.
Dziękują
joseph chongMonday, November 6, 2006 0:43
Hello Adrian,
I read your post in delight. It is very interesting. It is terrible to hear there is such fake “Shorin-ryu Seibukan”. How can this happen? Why the government does not take any action on this fake association?
mahindranMonday, November 6, 2006 10:17
Hi,
I was from MSSKA but I joined Hayashiha 4 years ago. I agree with you about this fake Shorin-ryu. I wasn’t too sure about my theory. I did some reading and asked people at Hayashiha but I was not getting right answer until I read your blog. Your posts have cleared all my doubts which books can’t. I really enjoy reading your posts and I hope you will continue the great work.
Wow! That really was a lot of info. but I think I know what you are trying to say. Unfortunately there is no governing body and no government regulations concerning martial arts. anyone can hang up a shingle claiming that they are a 10th degree black belt and there is no recourse. It is sad that some people take advantage of that fact.
Thank you for reading my blog and I am glad that you find it interesting.
Well, the public and even some high ranking karate-ka do not even truly understand karate and the systems. How can the government know which is authentic and fake? In the interest of the government, as long as an association is legally registered, the government will not bother too much. Since the fake “Shorin-ryu Seibukan” is legally registered with the name, the difference is in how they made up their registered name by manipulating words. For example, “This Shorin-ryu Seibukan” and “That Shorin-ryu Seibukan” are literally and technically (legally) different as the names imply. This satisfies the government’s policy of registering an association under the Sports Act. But little do they (the government, the public and some unwary karate-ka and students) know that technically (in karate) there are differences.
The bogus one uses this deception to cloak their fakery. They further brain-wash their students with all false and adulterated facts. Only ignorant and unwary, pathetic fools will be deceived.
Adrian HoeMonday, November 6, 2006 10:39
Dear Mahindran,
Osu!
At least, Hayashiha has proper lineage with Hayashiha ****o-ryu in Japan. I am glad that you have realized this earlier and switched.
Enjoy your Hayashiha karate!
RagBashaWednesday, November 15, 2006 17:46
Adrian,
I have been following up with your blog for more than 6 months now. From what I see, you have been targeting Malaysia Shorin Ryu Seibukan Karate Association(MSSKA) and giving remarks that they are fake and your association is the genuine one. From my understanding, you did train under MAKA and KARAMET. They follow MSSKA, where did you get your Shodan and what Dan are you now? If you say that you are more than Shodan, did you start all over again from 9th Kyu till Shodan in your “authentic” association?
How could you ask a person from another style to join you and take up the 4th Kyu test and start from 5th Kyu with your association? Can this be done, then what standard do your association have?
Further to that, you did mention that ” what is so great in having a Malaysian affiliation” can you explain to the public what benefit do you get when you are affiliated to Japan and Malaysia? Please differentiate this . Your association is not recognised by Malaysian Karate Federation (MAKAF), can your students compete in Malaysian tournaments directly under your associations name, I don’t think so.
Just because you have a blog and you can write whatever you can, try not to go beyond your limitations. You have not practised proper training etique and dont try to teach others the same. Look at your self and associations level and respect before you talk about others.
ridzuanThursday, November 16, 2006 1:38
What a rude brag you are, Basha? In what position for you to comment someone’s training and dan?
I support Adrian’s view. He is doing good to karate by educating people about Shorin-ryu Seibukan. What’s wrong?
Do you have enough ethics?
A blog is where a person write about their thoughts and ideas. If you don’t like it, you can leave it or if you like, you can leave something constructive for the author. You have not seen Adrian in training, neither do I. How can you comment about his training ethics? What I know from Adrian’s blog is that he has done quite a lot of research in karate. I respect what he has done. From your comment, you have ZERO ethics! Don’t bark!
BTW, it’s spelled “ethics” not “etique”. It is funny you even misspelled the word! LOL!
Celine WongThursday, November 16, 2006 9:35
I am not a karate student. But I learn TKD. I am study in Uniten. I think of learn karate. I search for karate injuries and found Adrian’s blog. His research about “Injuries in Karate” is very useful. So, I read on his blog and very interesting. Got enough problems in TKD oredi but it likes karate has more problem than TKD. it is no point to join lah! karate and tkd is all the same lah.
Adrian HoeThursday, November 16, 2006 9:49
Dear Celine,
Please do not feel discouraged by all this dirty politics and the fakery in karate.
Uniten’s karate-do is led by Kong Tai Moon Sensei of MASK (Malaysia ****o-ryu Karate-do Federation). He is a very good and experience instructor and MASK holds proper lineage to ****oryu in Osaka, Japan. I strongly recommend you to join his class. His teaching is also very progressive and no body else in Malaysia karate can teach like him. If I am going to rate him, I will give him a perfect 10!
Go! Sign up the class with him. I assure you will not regret learning from him. He is one of very few karate-ka who teaches karate as karate.
Good luck with your training and don’t look back. And I thank you for visiting and supporting my blog.
RagBashaThursday, November 16, 2006 9:55
Ridzuan,
If you say that my views are wrong, you ask him where did he attain his Shodan from? Which a style and association? One should start from 9th Kyu when they start learning karate, how about him? Doesn’t he or his Sensei knew about this system?Then what do you call this comments of his on the clone. How can someone who trained under one style condemn the style when he is not there anymore. I think you do that too. He says a lot on the clone, is this what his new asscoation teach him?
You talk a lot, think what if he is talking about your association the same way he condemns the clone, would you be happy? I have been learning and teaching karate for more than 8yrs and this is the firat time I hear someone talking bad of their former trainers and association. He has no sense of respect and how do you expect others to respect him or his views.
There are also few other styles in MAKAF eg. Hayashiha, ****oRyu, GoshinRyu, Gojukai and why isn’t he talking about them, dont tell me that they dont have problems or made mistakes? He is targeting to only one style and why? Because he was not happy with someone, thats why? If you a are unhappy with someone, let it be the individual and why do you target the association/style. How many students does the clone has and how many years are they in action? How many years does his association is around in Malaysia?
Think before you say something Ridzuan, I appreciate his knowledge and research on Karate but use it for good cause and not to condemn. If he is so good then ask him to challenge the MAKAF committe and be a leader in MAKAF itself.
Thank you for your comment. I love it, really. Thank you for following up my blog.
My remarks are based on true facts that many sapheads do not understand and will not like.
Did I target MSSKA in this article? You say it, not me! Where in the hell of my blog condemning MSSKA? I am educating people how to differentiate the true Shorin-ryu Seibukan. What’s wrong with my intention? Where in the hell of my post did I mention MSSKA is fake Shorin-ryu? What are you trying to implicate? Are you implicating that MSSKA is fake Shorin-ryu? Are you a saphead who denies the truth? Are you also one of the crony who lurks under the cloaked facts? I hope you are not. I don’t exactly know which karate you come from but I can guess. Wherever you come from, please do try to understand the history and philosophy of karate.
To reinforce your comment, yes, the Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate (http://seibukan.org.my) is the only genuine Shorin-ryu Seibukan in Malaysia. It holds the lineage from the Okinawan Shorin-ryu Seibukan. And it has the chartered dojo certificate issued by honbu dojo located in Chatan-cho, Okinawa. The certificate is signed by Zenpo Shimabukuro Hanshi. So, if this is not genuine, than what should it be? Tell me.
It is obvious that you do not understand my article and karate completely. What is “ryu”? A “ryu” can be literally translated to “stream”. Like the stream or river, it has a source where and how it begins. Let’s put pollution aside. The chemical content in the water will be the same at the source and at the river mouth. The “ryu” in karate-do and other Japanese/Okinawan martial arts has the same meaning as well. Of course, there can be pollution when time and geographic factors are injected into the system. And the kata is like the chemical in the stream. How can one karate school claims to be Shorin-ryu Seibukan but the kata is not the same as authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan? How the hell does Shotokan kata come into Shorin-ryu Seibukan? If you are from the other Shorin-ryu Seibukan, then let me ask you a question, are you Shorin-ryu or Shotokan? If you say you are Shorin-ryu, why do you not know Shorin-ryu Seibukan kata? Why are you doing Shotokan kata? Is this pollution in karate?
Apparently, you do not understand the ranking (or the kyu and dan) system in karate-do. If a person has obtained “dan” in a karate school and when he joins a different karate school, his “dan” will remain and he can start training at his “dan” level at the new school. If he wants to obtain a certificate from his new karate school, he has to be first graded for Sho-dan. He has to demonstrate his proficiency of all the techniques and kata of the new school which cover from white belt to shodan. On the other hand, if the person is in the “kyu” grade, it is at the discretion of the new karate school if the person should start all over from white belt or continue from the “kyu” grade obtained from the old school. If the later applies, the person still has to demonstrate his proficiency from white belt to the “kyu” grade he has. This is a common practice.
In simple words, your “dan” remains wherever you go. No one can take away your “dan”.
Let me ask you the question around. If a person has obtained Shodan in his karate school, and he wants to join MSSKA, where should he start? Or, a person with 4th “kyu” joins MSSKA, does this person have to begin from white belt?
I have to take my Shodan test in this authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan with no exception at all. My certificate is MSSKA, yes, I don’t deny that. I want to be certified by this authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate and obtain the shodan certificate as well. And I trained really hard to improve my proficiency in this authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan. If you are questioning the standard of this Shorin-ryu Seibukan, I am not the right person to ask. You should ask the country chief instructor, Pathmanathan Sensei. If this does not satisfy you, you can ask our World Supreme Sensei, Zenpo Shimabukuro Hanshi. If you want to question my standard in this authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan, you should ask Pathmanathan Sensei.
What “dan” I am now is irrelevant. What makes sense to me is that I have to grade for my Shodan to prove my proficiency in this genuine Shorin-ryu Seibukan. To me “dan” is not important. It is just an award system to encourage people to improve.
If you insist to question my standard, then I talk about standard. I know a person who was awarded Sandan without taking a grading test. He told me personally and he offered to get me Sandan. I rejected his kind offer. I was still in and having very close relationship with KARAMET then. On what base does MSSKA have to award him Sandan? What standard and ethics are you talking about here?
Before you question the standard, please take a look at the standard you are in now (if you are a karate-ka). It is rude to question someone standard. I did not question the standard of anyone, let me emphasize this once.
I am damned sure you are a Malaysian. You know well about MAKAF and MSSKA. And I am damned sure you are in Malaysia because you are using Streamyx. Am I right?
You want to talk about MAKAF and recognition. You got it! I can talk about MAKAF and MSSKA with you. You want me to let the whole world know the truth, you got it! The question is, can people take the pressure? If MAKAF and MSSKA want to sue me, so sue me! I know MAKAF and, particularly, MSSKA are very angry and they are looking for ways to get to me. If they have not done anything wrong, there is nothing for people to write/talk about.
Yes, International Okinawan Shorin-ryu Seibukan Karate-do of Malaysia (IOSSKAM) is not recognized by MAKAF. IOSSKAM students cannot compete in MAKAF tournaments directly under association name. Why? Because the people managing (controlling) MAKAF is practicing autocracy. First, do you understand the role of MAKAF? MAKAF is an umbrella organization established to bring all karate associations together under one roof to facilitate government policy and to help the country to find and nurture new blood in sports particularly in karate-do. MAKAF has no right to reject any karate-do organization with “proper” lineage to join MAKAF. IOSSKAM has repeatedly applying to MAKAF as an annual event. Every each time, MAKAF turns down IOSSKAM application.
In what power does MAKAF have to turn down IOSSKAM application? Are they supposed to be open door? Is MAKAF running for the interest of our nation or for the interest of some people? MAKAF receives government funding which comes from the taxes paid by all Malaysians including you. They and their children deserve the privilege to compete under any associations they like and eventually to represent the country. Do they have this privilege?
How can a karate organization like IOSSKAM with proper lineage from Okinawa headquarters be denied of membership to MAKAF?
How can a karate organization like MSSKA without any lineage be a member of MAKAF? Which Shorin-ryu Seibukan dojo in Japan/Okinawa does MSSKA have lineage with?
Who does make the decision to deny IOSSKAM membership? The supreme council! MSSKA representative is one of the member of MAKAF supreme council!
IOSSKAM is not the only one. Do you want me to name another? I think I should. I should let the whole Malaysia and the world to know this. The Malaysia IOGKF (International Okinawan Goju-ryu Karate-do Federation Malysia branch) is one of them. Worst, they are denied the registration as IOGKFM (International Okinawan Goju-ryu Karate-do Federation of Malaysia) by sports commissioner because MAKAF monopolizes the registration. Any registration of karate organization submitted to the sports commissioner has to be approved by MAKAF. The poor Malaysia IOGKF can only be registered as a district organization in Hilir Perak. The Malaysia IOGKF is based in Teluk Intan, Perak and led by Arumugam Veerappan Sensei. (http://iogkf.com)
Why IOGKF with proper lineage can be denied of registration as a federation body and membership to MAKAF?
Are the members/students of IOSSKAM and MIOGKF Malaysians? Why are they being denied their privilege to have equal opportunity to represent our country in sports karate?
Why MSSKA can represent in MAKAF? Why MSSKA can be a member of Supreme Council in MAKAF? Again, does MSSKA hold any lineage?
The sapheads’ answer is very simple. “Because they are founders!” So what being a founder? MAKAF exists for the interest of this nation, not the founders.
If an organization like IOGKF of Malaysia branch with proper lineage can be denied of registration as a federation in Malaysia and has to register as district organization, then is it supposed MSSKA without lineage to be registered as state or district organization?
If IOSSKAM and IOGKF Malaysia branch are denied membership to MAKAF, isn’t MSSKA supposed to be denied its membership to MAKAF too? IOSSKAM and IOGKF have proper lineage while MSSKA does not.
Is this fair?
Is this democracy or is this autocracy?
Answer me!
You being a Malaysia karate-ka (if you like), please take a fair look at the situation and try to understand it without others influences. The karate-do in Malaysia is really a mess already, please don’t make it worse.
Whether you are practicing karate-do as a sports or as a self-defense art, please take some time to understand not only the art, but also the politics in karate-do organizations. Please analyze the facts from many perspective and use formal reasoning in judging right or wrong. Please stand up for rightness and justice like you stand up to say I am wrong.
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What limitation? How do you define limitation? And you comment about ethics. What base do you have to comment my training ethics? What higher “dan” do you have to comment somebody’s “dan”? What ethics do you have? You know nothing about training!
Where did you find me mentioning “what is so great in having a Malaysian affiliation”? I suspect your reading skill.
Condemn? When and where in the hell of my blog condemning MSSKA? If you are not from MSSKA, why are you so mad about my critique? You can’t even differentiate between condemn and critique. If MSSKA think they are genuine, why are they so mad about I talking about authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan? Are they haunted themselves by their fakery and cloaked facts? I did not say MSSKA is a fakery. You did it yourself.
Respect? I have no respect? What the f*ck are you talking about? You want to talk about respect, then I talk about respect. I terminated (I will not use the word “resign”) my membership with MSSKA. Remember, I say, “I terminated my membership with MSSKA”, not MSSKA terminated my membership. After I terminated my membership with them, I joined ****o-ryu (MASK). Regardless of any membership I have, isn’t this a free world to join any association? People has got money and they can join as many associations as they like. What the f*ck do you want to prevent others to join other association? Two high ranking clowns from MSSKA talked to MASK Vice President. They defamed me and prevented MASK to take my membership. If I wanted to join MASK, on one condition, I could not teach ****o-ryu in Melaka. You talked about respect? Did these two high ranking clowns respect their formal member? One clown is 9th-dan and the other is 7th-dan. Do you think both clowns have any ethics and respect? Do you think they deserved to be sacked? Do you want me to name these two clowns? DO YOU WANT ME TO NAME THESE TWO CLOWNS?
I went to see MSSKA 9th-dan chief instructor, Mr. Chin Mok Sung, at his office at Jalan Yam Tuan (before they moved to their new office). I explained and apologized to him in person. He accepted my apologies and commented that was a small matter and he did not mind anymore. Is this forgiveness? How can a 9th-dan country chief break his word by telling the committee to suspend my membership? Why did he not tell the committee that I had seen him in person to explain and apologize and he had accepted my apologies? By doing so, the matter would be put to rest and I would still be in MSSKA today. He was inconsistent person and he still is. I thanked him for giving me the opportunity to learn karate. Did I not respect him? Now, I take this opportunity to thank him again for taking me to the authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Isn’t this a respect from me? Did MSSKA respect me as a human being in the first place? Where is the basic ethics of a karate-ka? And you want to talk about respect and ethics to me!
Until today, I have not received any official letter from MSSKA about my membership suspension. I have not taken any legal action against them. Am I not respecting? I reserve my rights to take legal action on them. If they want to sue me, so sue me. They have a Sandan lawyer, don’t they? Isn’t this time for him to contribute to MSSKA?
If the two clowns did not disturb me at ****o-ryu, I would have never found out the true and genuine Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Now, I have found out the truth and I share with everybody, then you claiming having more than 8 years of learning and teaching karate, come to me and tell me that I have no respect? What kind of respect do you have? You want to talk about respect, I am your senior. I obtained my Shodan from MSSKA way back in 1987. I don’t feel ashame to let people know I was from MSSKA. And you want to talk about respect? I know respect well than you do. Before you comment other people has no respect, please investigate the incident thoroughly before you put up your statement! And that’s basic ethics and respect.
You think you have respect to your association. Indeed, you are slapping on their face as well as your own. If you don’t know the details of what was happening, please check with the person before you jump into conclusion.
I don’t need your respect. I never request anyone, including you, to respect me. I earn it myself.
Why should I talk about other associations in MAKAF? Before I reply you, I never talk about MSSKA. I was just talking about genuine Shorin-ryu Seibukan and how to differentiate them. Again, you did it yourself! You think you are smart? I don’t think so. What a big slap you gave them! Ha! Ha! Ha! You instigate me to reveal the true facts. I have been waiting for some idiot to create this opportunity and you are that idiot. I am playing the psychological warfare and an idiot just stepped on my trap!
How do you not know MAKAF is having headache now? How do you not know MAKAF is having attention from our government now? I don’t have to challenge MAKAF. And I have no intention to do that. It was there for the interest of our nation and her people. The people in there will challenge itself and face pressure and resolve itself by all means. That’s only matter of time. And an idiot (not me) has just slapped MAKAF on its face.
When I had no where to go after MASK, I have to fulfill my responsibility as an instructor to my students. I had to bring them to an association. I did not give up. I searched very hard and I knocked on the door of truth. I bring my students to the true path and an idiot like you come forward and tell me I have got no training ethics and respect to others. I selected the association very carefully this time and I respect my students as a human being. And you idiot come to tell me I have no respect to others? And this idiot still keep the true facts from his own students making them a fool while he calls himself training ethics and respect to others?
This is my personal website. The freedom to express these opinions are solely mine. They may have bizarre coincidence or that are just non deterministic behavior. It has nothing to do with IOSSKAM. It is EXTREMELY RUDE to connect me to IOSSKAM. Didn’t your association teach you basic ethics and respect?
This is my blog. I say anything I like. If you don’t like my rumbling, you can choose to leave my f*cking blog and never ever come back again. Please respect freedom of speech! That’s basic ethics.
You are really sharp and you’ve earned my respect! You’re damned good! Osu!
ridzuanThursday, November 16, 2006 14:06
That proves what you said is correct. They have nothing to be afraid of if they are proper and true.
I don’t think there is any condemn. I see only facts, true facts, and nothing more than true facts. He is overreact and gives himself and his association a big slap on their own faces.
My salute to you, Adrian.
I hope more people will see the truth. What is the point if one learns karate and refuses to learn the truth? That’s no training ethics. And their instructors have no coaching ethics!
Jay Bharatheesh SimhaThursday, November 16, 2006 15:10
In support of Adrian Hoe,
“individual is more important than the system. System is only perception but individual is the reality”
Hello all. I am a scientist by passion and profession (even in martial arts).I am not for or against any style or organization. I have practised many styles and found that no style is superior to other if correctly practised. I am following Adrian’s blogs since six months and found to be factual. I am in constant touch with him and at least understod his mental patterns. He is very objective in what he writes.
IMO every person can speak out his mind. That is what is needed in an open society. It is for the other person to logicaly evaluate it as useful or otherwise. However , i am finding verbal spats on Adrian about his ranks. If somebody is asking me( i feel i am at least qualified - credentials of course by social standards only - with master degrees in engineering, computer science and psychology, a doctoral degree in computer science, advanced gradings in tae-kwon-do ITF and oshokai karate and few other styles with 15 years of practice, promoting full contact self defense for last 8 years and real world experience in fighting)i grade him equivalent to a master degree holder in martial arts practice and knowledge.
If it is question of degrees like black belt i can show masters who can neither fight nor know any stuff. Belts can be purchased without true understanding of karate. True essence of martial arts can be experienced when you do it for passion, not as a profession. In order to read and comment on english litt. you do not need a Ph.D. in english litt. Similarly in order to comment on karate styles you need not have to have a 10th degree black belt. Intense, quality and correct practice with an open mind is enough.With Adirian, he has done his work. He is very clear and proves with evidence problems all of us (who have taken karate as a passion for life) feel should be addressed.
There is a note which states that if i want to learn a style i have to unlearn other style which i am already practicing. This is a zen koan used incorrectly. I did my masters in different subjects without going through pre-nursery in thaose subject. If Adrian has practised Shotokan like style and switched to Shorin ryu, i do not think he has to start from 1st kyu. If he does that his teacher is making money by introducing unnecessary belts(if belt is the qualification). Otherwise Adrian is capable enough to start from scratch and accelerate rapidly to reach the current rank without unnecessary gradings.
If what he observed in the other org as an anomoly is the problem, he is very categorical about his observation. Do not try to alter what seems to be a fact.If loyalty is the issue, then question is why we have to follow blindly and not say a spade as spade? May be because we are afraid when we become de-identified. It is a very dangerous practice not to question any authority. Respect is different from speaking truth. Let him speak and you just prove, what he is speaking is not truth. We support you too, if you do so.
Let us understand that as intellignet organisms we have to get enlightened from karate not earn a belt rank from some??
Katy YongThursday, November 16, 2006 21:11
Dear Adrian,
I’ve not seen you so impulsive for 6 years. This guy must be stepping real hard on your tail. Relax and cheers.
Your strategy are getting sharper! I like your style. Bold and crisp. Precise and factual. Great pressure. :P
Although I am not learning karate, but your karate stories are really fascinating me. I agree with your comment. No part of your blog is condemning. It is the people who read and misunderstood your intention. They are not good readers, I would say. And most likely they are emotional because of their loyalties to their association.
I believe in time will reveal the truth. I believe one day, people will realize the good you have done and be thank you for what you have done. I know you for 9 years and have been working together with you for 7 years and I know you will not quit until you achieve your objective. A good fighting spirit. I support you wholly.
Adrian HoeThursday, November 16, 2006 23:11
Dear Katy, Jay and Ridzuan:
Thanks for your support. Yes, I’ve been impulsive on this. I was stress out because of some problems in my work and got too many things on my mind and this pour soul chose the wrong time and really stepped on my tail real hard.
Kate, I’m sorry I broke my promise. I’ve cooled down. Cheers!
I am 21 years old from Liao Ning, China and I am studying Computer Science, 2nd year master degree at Tsinghua University in Beijing, China. I know Adrian since November 4 from his blog and since then we have been communicating and talking about computer programming in Ada as well as martial arts and philosophy in life.
My father is a Wu’s Tai Chi master and I learn from him since 7. My uncle is a Preying Mantis and Tang Tui (谭腿) master and I learn from my uncle as well. My cousin brother is a Military Wushu instructor and I learn from him free sparring (散打). Besides all, I learn BaGua Palm (八卦掌) from my father’s very good friend. We have no problems between different martial arts here in China. Many people come from near and far to learn and talk about martial arts with my father, uncle and my father’s friend. Some of these visitors will criticize the techniques in my father’s teaching. They are very happy to discuss with an open mind . Some are really true facts, some are not. My uncle, father and his friend will accept all discussions and criticisms and make improvement and help the others to make improvement. There are no unhappiness, no arguments and no fighting. The atmosphere is always friendly and peaceful. I witness only respect among them.
When I read about Adrian’s blog, I can’t find any evidence of him condemning any martial arts at all. When Adrian and I talk about martial arts and philosophy of life, I find him very objective, knowledgeable and enlightened not only in computer programming, also in philosophy and martial arts, particularly karate-do. I find him a friendly, passionate, optimistic and loving guy. I admire him and his capabilities. In China, every family can only have one child. I am the only child in my family and I always long for a brother. Because of his positive attitude, optimistic intuition, dynamism of faith, and he demonstrates his confidence to meet challenge, we become brother and sister.
I have a feeling to take up karate-do after talking to him. His theories and concepts fascinate me. I talked to my father a few days ago about learning karate-do and he did not object. In fact, he encouraged me to study and research foreign martial arts concepts and philosophy. Although karate-do has its root in China and I being a Chinese, I do not agree all martial arts come from China and are superior to others.
A well educated martial artist should possess open mind to accept, specially, criticisms so that one can improve oneself and the art. In spite of the differences, all martial arts are based on one fundamental concept, like Adrian mentioned and there is only one intelligence species, human being. It is an universe which only the enlightened could comprehend. What the heck become an ass (笨驴) and call yourself a martial artist? I remember I read one of Adrian’s post, here he said “…Most of them are brawls without brains”. Brawls or brains is a choice that distinguishes stupidity and intelligence. Be optimistic and objective. Stay cool.
I agree with your action whole heartedly. Your articles have enlightened many people, including me. You have also inspired me. Please continue your inspiration.
OSU! You’ve earned my respect more, Sensei. I see Seienchin (seize-control-fight) in your post, what an ingenious tactic. Here I would like to add my comment, based on my experience, to support Sensei.
I am a former student from the so-called Shorin-ryu Seibukan clone. I met Sensei when he was still in the clone, but we weren’t close to each other. Soon he quitted from the clone, and the link between us was totally off. I happened on his article from his website and realized the fact that he had questioned the genuineness of the katas we were learning, and had been attacked by the deputy that caused his resignation from the clone due to great disappointment. By chance and by luck, I ran into Sensei while he was conducting his training. I thought of joining his training as an extra to improve my skill, I had no idea of what style he’s teaching. When I first joined Sensei’s training, I learnt that it’s also Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Two Shorin-ryu Seibukan’s? Why are they so different in the techniques, katas, and mainly, the patch? Doubts arose and I asked Sensei why. I was told like what he has posted in Authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do and some hidden truths. Since then I started to investigate this style and that has boosted my knowledge in karate as well.
Shorin-ryu is generally characterized by natural breathing, natural (narrow, high) stances, and direct, rather than circular, movements. Shorin-ryu practitioners will say that deep stances are not important for powerful moves, and that only correct motion matters. In fact, Okinawan traditionalists often claim that deep, wide stances are a development of Japanese-styled karate, and are useful only for show or for building up your legs’ strength in order to make a good strong throw. (Quoted from Wikipedia)
Just like the description, in Sensei’s training, most stances are done in a higher and narrower way for greater efficiency. I was not used to it at the beginning (and till today :P ) as in my former dojo, I was taught the shotokan-like techniques mostly. The stances are wide and deep. Also, they practise kiba-dachi (straddle-leg stance) and kokutsu-dachi (back/L stance) which are unique to Shotokan. Under Sensei’s lecture, here I would like to share a little knowledge with everyone. Do you know that we can actually differentiate between the styles by just a seiken (fore-fist)?
For Shotokan, seiken is done straight to the front with the back of the fist faces right up; while for Shorin-ryu Seibukan, the fist is twisted to approximately 45 degrees so that the metacarpal bone of the forefinger is aligned to the radius (outer shorter bone in the human forearm), that is believed to be able to deliver a very powerful tsuki (punch). However, in the clone’s training, they learn to punch using the former seiken as described. It’s indeed ridiculous that the clone claims itself is Shorin-ryu Seibukan, the instructors as well as students don’t even practise such fundamental technique correctly.
How about the katas? According to the clone’s system, before one achieves his “dan”, he will be taught from Taikyoku Shodan, Heian Shodan - Godan, Tekki Shodan – Sandan. And in order to pass the Shodan grading, he must perform from Taikyoku Shodan to Tekki Sandan, and an additional kata, Bassai Dai. To those Shotokan practitioners, does it sound familiar to you? Yes, those are what I (as well as Sensei) practiced in my ex-dojo. Other than that, the clone claims that Bassai Sho, Kanku Dai, Kanku Sho, Jion, Hangetsu, Empi, Juroku, Unsu, Wanshu (the only Shorin-ryu kata in name only), Nisesi, Nijushisho, Gojushiho, to name but a few, are Shorin-ryu katas. Worst, the katas have been being modified from time to time by a “well respected” hanshi to make the katas unique to their style. The more efforts they put, the more they make themselves a laughing stock. How can this happen? How can the katas representing a style be so inconsistent? Who has the right to modify it?
I was truly disappointed by the clone’s inconsistent and improper system, and I decided to leave it and join Sensei full-heartedly. Honest speaking, I have struggled a lot between loyalty and justice, before making this decision. My former instructors have been very nice to me, without them I wouldn’t have today’s achievements. I really appreciate the opportunities they have given to me, yet my goal in karate path is to be a true karate-ka who master the skills as well as its philosophy, not just a fighter in tournaments. It’s sad to see their blind loyalty to the clone and deny the truth. Not only that, they even tell lies to cover the truth, confusing right and wrong. So what being fearless in fighting but don’t even have the courage to accept a truth and admit their mistake?
To RagBasha, from your comment, I guess you are from MSSKA since you defended it aggressively against Sensei’s post. You question Sensei’s dan and insist one should start all over again from 9th kyu if he joins other style. You ask:
How could you ask a person from another style to join you and take up the 4th Kyu test and start from 5th Kyu with your association? Can this be done, then what standard do your association have?
From what I know, MSSKA does allow a person to continue from the “kyu” or “dan” grade he obtained from the old style. Can you tell everyone what standard does MSSKA have? Again, you ask:
How many students does the clone has and how many years are they in action? How many years does his association is around in Malaysia?
So what? What is more important is if the association has a proper lineage and system. Who cares about how old and well-known an association is? You say that you have been learning and teaching karate for more than 8 years, you must have obtained at least Shodan, but your maturity and wisdom are even worse than an innocent white-belt. Stop barking around and jump into conclusion before checking up on something.
Dear Sensei, you are really a hero in karate world. I salute you for your passion and spirit towards karate. OSU! I ain’t sure if my comment will help people to understand more about the situation, but I have already done my best. Again, I apologize for being irresolute before this. Now, I can tell my decision proudly and honorly to everyone, that between loyalty and justice, I have chosen the latter, I have no regrets.
Adrian HoeWednesday, November 22, 2006 9:32
Dear 千里走单骑,
Everyone has to take their own course in life. You have come to the turning point where you choose and take your own course. It is indeed very hard to choose between loyalty and justice and even harder to choose between friends and justice. Drop the burden on your shoulder and move on and don’t look back. After years on the right path, you will find the past a comedy of life, you will find you are above them all with justice and rightness. Do not mind how your friends look at you.
As for what happened between you and I, let it be the past and a lesson for both of us. I am sorry for what I have done and please forgive me for making a little girl cried. I respect your decision and courage. The most powerful element on earth is respect and respect for the truth. You have earned both in this matter from Dragon sister and I.
We can’t change everyone. It is enough as long as we have done our best upholding the truth, justice and respect.
Move on, take your course now and don’t look back.
Osu!
潜龙在天Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:43
Dear 千里走单骑,
I am glad that you and Adrian have resolved and forgiven each other. The incident was a valuable lesson for all of us. It helped us to understand each other and bring us closer. Don’t you think so? I will never forget this incident although I was not involved.
Good luck on the true path. May the force be with you (like Adrian, I am a Star Wars fan. You may not be surprised if you understand the element of truth and justice in Star Wars).
I don’t know what is your name, I just copy from your comment. Whoever you are, congratulations!
A passionate, kind and knowledgeable Sensei is very hard to come by, especially in Malaysia nowadays. I don’t know what have happened between both of you but I am glad both of you have resolved and back on the path of truth.
Adrian is right, the strongest element on earth is respect.Follow your heart, listen to yourself and allow Sensei to guide you. I too wish you all the best in your new endeavor.
Michael OGradyWednesday, November 22, 2006 21:19
I find Adrian’s post very interesting and also objective and I support his action. What good a martial artist if one has no courage to uphold justice and rightness? It seems this “fake” Shorin-ryu is confusing right and wrong and trying to mislead people and its students of their wrong doings. Such organization is very irresponsible and has little knowledge in karate what to say about respect. I sympathize Adrian’s ordeal while he was in the “fake” Shorin-ryu but I celebrate for him because he has found the right path and be with true Shorin-ryu. I respect Adrian’s spirit in upholding the justice and the truth.
Karate is not only physical development, not only matter of winning in tournament, not only about respecting Sensei but is a Zen which emphasize on both physical and mental, excel beyond winning, and respect life and matters.
Good work, Adrian, you deserve more applause and bows. Osu!
Thanks for giving me a second chance. Sis Dragon is right, the incident is indeed a valuable and meaningful lesson to me. And yes, I will always keep your teachings and advices in my mind, thanks for lighting my way in karate; it’s my honor. Arigatou Gozaima****a!
Thanks! I don’t know who you are too, but I have read your supportive comments to Sensei all the while, you must be one of the rare true karate-kas. I respect you too, OSU!
Richard PrinceFriday, November 24, 2006 4:07
When I started my karate lessons about 6 years ago, I wasn’t sure about ryu or style. Apparently, after 3 years of training, I became aware of ryu or style and the kata that represents the ryu. I believe it is a normal learning process for a student to learn about the karate or ryu or style at the early stage. The understanding of ryu and kata is essential for a student. There are many karate in US without proper lineage or style. Most of them call themselves free style karate. To me, these free style karate is just kick boxing with kata and for the purpose of displaying physical feat. These free style karate do not understand the relationship between style and kata. Worst, there are many free style karate schools which do not practice kata. How can they call themselves karate if they don’t practice kata?
I strongly uphold the traditional value of karate, its ryu and lineage and kata. Thus, I am supportive about Adrian’s effort defending the trueness of the karate he is in practice now. It is very rare to see a person like Adrian promoting and defending the true karate. I really appreciate Adrian’s effort as he has increased my knowledge about this Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate.
tornadoTuesday, November 28, 2006 20:02
Basha, if you want to challenge him, you can come to Malacca and I will pay for your transport fee. I will show you the real Seibukan techniques and teach you something that you never experience before. I know most karate, tkd, silat, thai boxing student and their sensei, they are not like you very rude.
Don’t comment someone’s training and dan, ok?
prem anand rethinasamyTuesday, November 28, 2006 20:44
adrian
remeber me the director of Xtreme matial arts i need some info regarding sensei pathmanathan when and how he started
your personal info then the history of the International Okinawan Shorin-ryu Seibukan Karate-do Association of Malaysia
i am editing this next and any help will be appreciated and there are no faking a documentary ….
may the darkside be with you
anand
John AkerSunday, December 10, 2006 3:15
Are we (martial artist) supposed to respect our teacher regardless of their wrong doings? Why do you not walk away from this?
Adrian HoeThursday, December 14, 2006 14:03
Dear John,
Yes, we have to respect our teachers. But what you mentioned is totally wrong concept. It is an instrument for these teachers to save themselves from their own wrong doings. How could you respect a teacher as he/she has no honor at all? Respect needs a lot wisdom. Unfortunately, many does not have the wisdom to give respect. They have been blinded. They give their respect simply because they’re told to do so. Is this respect? It is clearly not.
I have tried to walk away but they do not feel satisfied. They want me totally out of karate but I can tell you that they have f*cked with the wrong person. I will only rest until I achieve my goal.
Ranjit AbrahamTuesday, December 19, 2006 9:00
Dear Adrian,
I am happy to see a blog on Seibukan. Having practised Karate as well as trained several persons spanning over the last 28 years both in the Seibukan brought from Malayasia (13 years )and directly from Shimabukaro (last 15 years), I am sad to see how politics and show-bitz dominates this style. For this very reason today, except for Karate practice, I keep away from all other issues.
I am happy to say that I was fortunate to have trained in Karate which has helped me immensely in my life and career.
My request is that this blog should refrain from SYSTEMS and explain how on can achieve both physical and mental maturity by training Karate.
Adrian HoeTuesday, January 9, 2007 9:08
Hi Ranjit,
Thank you for dropping by my blog. It is good to hear another karate-ka from the authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan who has trained directly from Shimabukuro Sensei.
It is indeed sad to see politics and show-biz dominate the style and as well as karate in general. My intention of this article is to educate more people about real Shorin-ryu karate-do. Enough of all the bull****ting from these clone Shorin-ryu. Being a victim myself, I do not want to see more unwary people getting into something which is not true. It is a fight between truth and cloaked lies. It has been my belief since I got closer to the truth.
Many people told me to move on and to forget the past. But I don’t think forgetting upholding trueness is the right thing in karate as well as other martial arts.
Indeed, I have written something about techniques in Chinese, unfortunately. Why? Because I am relating karate to Taichi which I understand it in Chinese itself. I don’t know how to translate to English. I have also written some about kata, although not much, but not bad for a start.
Time is my constraint. Perhaps, will need to wait until I have retired from my work to write more about karate techniques.
Jaysimha bharatheeshTuesday, January 9, 2007 13:56
Hi Professor,
Nice to see you on Adrian’s blog. World is small.
AzlimmiTuesday, January 9, 2007 20:09
Does it matter which ryu is which, only that it is true. Your fight to uphold you and yours have been inspirational to lots of people. Unfortunately, there are some who cannot accept the truth for what is it. There are no versions of the truth. There is only THE truth. For the past few months since I have joined your training, I have enjoyed it immensely. Finally, I said to myself, here is a person whom I can call a partner in my journey to higher understanding of martial arts. There is a malay proverb ’siapa makan chili api, dia yang terasa’, literally means : he who eats the chili, feels hot. That is the case with Adrian’s blog. Otherwise why be defensive if there is no wrong done. Bravo!!
Adrian HoeTuesday, January 9, 2007 21:54
It is a great pleasure to get to know you and train with you. A true friend with open mind and noble heart is hard to come by. Thank you for your support and I hope can together journey to higher understanding in martial arts as our passion. Osu!! My friend(s)
LatineThursday, January 11, 2007 0:43
My guess is probably everyone envy your spirit and that you hold the truth. You know it and it has already made every persons head spins… be true to yourself and no one, NO ONE can deter your intention and respect!
SeikenTuesday, January 16, 2007 21:47
“Choosing not to following in the footsteps of the masters but rather seeking what they sought.” Matsu Basho
Juan Valdez Gonzalez Himenez Rodrigues EscobarFriday, January 19, 2007 8:41
I was under the impression from seeing the American Seibukan Karateka that it was School Yard Karate anyway. So what makes a difference in a made up style earlier, or a made up style later? With Fukyugata in it, it shows Itosu influence.
Adrian HoeSaturday, January 20, 2007 23:23
Hi Juan,
Thanks for dropping by my blog and your comment. I don’t exactly know what you mean about “School Yard Karate”. Do you mean Seibukan Karate is only taught to children in school?
Seibukan karate emphasizes on repetition training of same techniques to perfection. The founder of Seibukan, O’Sensei Zenryo Shimabukuro said, “karate training is like boiling water”. Water needs to be kept on fire in order to let it to boil continuosly, otherwise, the water will cool down. This makes up one of significant philosophy in Seibukan. If you look at the training curriculum of Seibukan, unlike other karate styles, it has very few techniques to train. This is a very traditional way of training. And it is also very boring, for some grown up children and adults to repeat the same training days after days, months after months, and years after years. It is best to instill this training philosophy in younger children.
Fukyugata ichi was developed by Matsubayashi-ryu, O’Sensei Soshin Nagamine and Fukyugata ni was actually Gekisha ichi which was developed by O’Sensei Chojun Miyagi. Both Fukyugata have been adopted by many Okinawan Shorin-ryu, including Shorin-ryu Seibukan. It is no surprise there are cross-influence in many styles. Most Shuri and Naha kata are too complicated for beginners, so Fukyugata ichi and ni were composed to ease the beginners.
FlorianTuesday, January 30, 2007 0:51
Hi,
I found your blog via google by accident and have to admit that youve a really interesting blog :-)
Just saved your feed in my reader, have a nice day
pttanWednesday, February 28, 2007 10:01
Hi Adrian,
I did not know much about karate and its politics until I read your blog. Sad to see this happens. But it is nice to have someone like you to write about all the good and bad about karate. Please keep up the nice work. I enjoy very much reading your blog.
I’ve been reading all these blogs and after checking some sites regarding shorin ryu and shotokan styles, I definitely agree on what you want to point out.I’m currently training in one school here in the mid-east which I think is affiliated with MSSKA.Can you refer a dojo here in the UAE which teaches authentic shorinryu seibukan?
I wish you good luck in training with the authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan. Hope to meet you in the very near future in authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan.
Truth SeekerSunday, April 8, 2007 9:53
Dear Mr. Adrian Hoe,
It is good to know that someone beside me had found out the truth about MSSKA. Let me introduce you about myself. I am K student, and from your blog, I got to really know who you are (before that, I have seen you quite often at the K training dojo with Mr. Z).
I started learning karate when I was 15, under Mr. X in Seremban and at that time it was not MSSKA, but he was under some karate organisation which was unfamiliar to me (the symbol was an eagle) which grading was done not by the instructor himself but in a group . Later on, he brought us to MSSKA. Note that these things was not being told to us, or to me (when my relatives asked, he tried different reasonings) but it was my sole initiative of putting jigsaw puzzles together. And therefore I started my training under MSSKA. Being 15 and new to karate, most of us practically don’t care about the system or the style although at that time, I already have some knowledge of karate. I remembered Mr. X told us that the system that we learnt was the original one that was never modified. How wrong was him when I found out the truth later on.
When I had my full hands on the internet in about the year 1999/2000, I learnt that the Taikyoku and Heian katas as well as some MSSKA ones are unique only to the Shotokan system. I didn’t actually ask my instructor and my senior about this matter (knowing that most of them are not philosophical people). I stumbled upon the real Seibukan website one day. There, I posted questions, among other matters, the katas. I was replied by Mr. Jussi Hakkinen (if I got his name correct), about this matter and he got Mr. Jamal Measara who was the instructor in Germany to email me. When Mr. Jamal got back in Malaysia, I called him up at his home and he told me the origins of MSSKA, about how Chin Mok Sung went only a few months to study a few katas from Mr. Zenpo. When asked why Shotokan katas are taught, he cleared my doubt by telling me that Chin Mok Sung actually taught the KissiKai Shotokan Karate before.
When I furthered my studies in KL, I left my karate lessons for 2 years although knowing that there is a Seibukan branch. But time and location does not permit me to join. When I came to K Melaka and knowing that there was a karate club here, I email the club asking what type of style they teach. But sadly the reply was asking me to join their training. Looks like many people are ignorant these days. So from xxxx I did go for training, but not as frequent as last time, often skipping training. Last year I only trained once.
Actually, from the conduct of karate, it is really not difficult to see that MSSKA has flaws. One thing is the kata itself. Different instructors, different style of kata. It is not systematic although they come from a single style. I had trained under Mr. X, Mr. Y and Mr Z himself, and I dare to say that all of them have taught me different kata movements. And the kata is not organised, what more the kata Taikyoku Shodan was actually pronounced Taikyuko Shodan. Until today I don’t know how many katas MSSKA actually teach. And until today I still don’t really like the character of Chin Mok Sung or his sons that is not really ‘educated’ if you allow me to use that word. Having had my training at the Seremban Honbu Dojo, I started to feel weird looking at the old black and white pictures with the dates written in the 70s and was wondering why there aren’t any pictures in the 50s or 60s when karate blossomed. That’s when Chin Mok Sung started the MSSKA, in the 70s.
It is surprising that only after 20 years, you question the legality of the MSSKA style. Have you not wonder that karate is actually from Japan (from Okinawa, but it was Japanified) and the Chief Instructor must be a Japanese? Probably at your time, the internet era has not actually blossomed.
But it is a good feeling for me that there are people like you who dare to seek the truth. As for me, judging from my age, I’ll probably retire from karate in the near future after graduation.
And yes, the Bassai Dai and Sho is different from the Shotokan style, and I think we both are still scratching our heads figuring as to who had modified the katas.
Truth Seeker
ridzuanThursday, April 12, 2007 22:45
Truth Seeker,
How nice to hear someone else besides Adrian has found the truth. Congratulations! I hope you have meet up with Adrian and talk about karate deeply and perhaps you have trained with him. I enjoy skyping with Adrian and talk about karate and the politics. I hope the next time when I return home for holiday, I will find some time to meet and train with Adrian.
I heard Chin Mok Sung has got his Ku-dan. Where did he get his Ku-dan from? Who honored his Ku-dan? Does anybody have any clues?
Truth SeekerThursday, April 12, 2007 22:58
Hello Ridzuan.
A few years ago I had asked Mr. Jamal Measara about Chin Mok Sung’s level of Dan and how he get it and I was told that he award himself. Well, being the chief instructor, it is with no doubt that he will do that.
Adrian HoeThursday, April 12, 2007 23:16
Hi,
It’s nice to get old and new friends back.
I will not be surprised if he awarded himself Ku-dan. With his reputation being one of the pioneer in the Malaysia karate history and also being one of the founder of MAKAF, who on this earth dares to question his qualification?
I and my friend, had once regarded him as a highly respected grand master 20 years ago. How did he treat me? He took away all my respect. But I thank him (and actually thank to both Syed Pakri Sensei and Rashid Sensei) for introducing karate-do to me. I would say it is faith that he introduced karate-do to me, and he trying to prevent me from crossing over to another style, and I beat around a big bush to come back (effortlessly) to the original Shorin-ryu Seibukan, all because of him! Arigato gozaimatsu.
ridzuanThursday, April 12, 2007 23:33
Hi Adrian and Truth Seeker,
Have not been to your blog for quite some time. It is nice to hear you are doing great back home.
Well, I was fascinated by some of the stories about Chin Mok Sung beating up some Europeans in a restaurant/pub. Perhaps, people had overly amplified some facts, I guess. Nevertheless, the ordeal that Adrian has experienced, are really an eye-opener, at least and particularly, for Adrian. On the other hand, I do agree with Adrian that it’s been faithed in his journey of karate. I think it is a faith for you to find the truth and come to Melaka. Both of you must meet up for the good of karate.
Authentic Shorin-ryu Seibukan karate-do
Why? Because I am relating karate to Taichi which I understand it in Chinese itself. I don’t know how to translate to English. I have also written some about kata, although not much, but not bad for a start.
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