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But, I digress. I think that there is a difference between the rank of Master and having 'mastered' something just like there is a difference between having a master's degree and having mastered the subject. The former is a title and the latter is a state of perfection.
You're right about the time limit deal, especially when it comes to colored belts, but sometimes part of the test for the next rank is about dedication to the art. A grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do would be hesitant to make someone 4th Dan if he thought that they were just going to stop studying martial arts at some point in their life. When you get that high you should really be in it for the long haul.
just concentrate on what you have to learn...and on practising...you'll get what you want - first you'll become a good fighter, then you'll get your belt
I'm sorry. I had to read this post twice to make sure that I understood the concept right. Actually, I'm still not sure that I got it right.
What I'm getting is that you're bothered because it will take you "several years" to master something as complex as karate. Is this correct?
If so, God forbid you ever take up traditional samurai or ninja training.
In this case, we'll take "several years" to mean five years. I'm basing this on my dojo. Others will be different. And as Chayudo said, each student will progress differently. (A parable about an overeager student questioning his master on how long mastery would take comes to mind at this point, too)
During this time, you will not just be learning new moves, you will be continuously improving them. You will be learning many katas, which help you flow from one maneuver into another. You will be training with weapons, which also help your unarmed abilities (punches are so much easier since I picked up bo).
Honestly, I don't think too much of any art that only takes a few months to a year to "master." That's not enough time to truly learn anything. By the end of that time, you're only beginning to pick up the nuances of the moves you are learning.
There's something to be said for being well-rounded, but dabbling in a bunch of different arts can only take you so far. I believe that to really learn, you've got to stick with something, even while working on different arts.
__________________
"I don't have the knack of victory at all times. I have only learned how not to miss the right moment." Kenshin Uesugi
"If you confer only with people in your own circle (relatives and friends), their opinions will naturally favor you, rendering them useless." Tsunetomo Yamamoto
"In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change."
Thich Nhat Hanh
I'm sorry. I had to read this post twice to make sure that I understood the concept right. Actually, I'm still not sure that I got it right.
What I'm getting is that you're bothered because it will take you "several years" to master something as complex as karate. Is this correct?
If so, God forbid you ever take up traditional samurai or ninja training.
In this case, we'll take "several years" to mean five years. I'm basing this on my dojo. Others will be different. And as Chayudo said, each student will progress differently. (A parable about an overeager student questioning his master on how long mastery would take comes to mind at this point, too)
During this time, you will not just be learning new moves, you will be continuously improving them. You will be learning many katas, which help you flow from one maneuver into another. You will be training with weapons, which also help your unarmed abilities (punches are so much easier since I picked up bo).
Honestly, I don't think too much of any art that only takes a few months to a year to "master." That's not enough time to truly learn anything. By the end of that time, you're only beginning to pick up the nuances of the moves you are learning.
There's something to be said for being well-rounded, but dabbling in a bunch of different arts can only take you so far. I believe that to really learn, you've got to stick with something, even while working on different arts.
Ok well you have a good point there, but unfortunately you have got it all completely wrong, there is no black belt in the world that has come any where near mastery unless they have maybe a 5th-10th Dan in the martial art, just because i want a black belt it does not mean that i intend to me masterful, and if you look at the actaul curriculems for some martial arts you will see that there is no more to be learnt than in a degree course.
Why should i not strive to understand and be good at the very basics of a martial art, in the quickest time possible, because it is the white to basic black belt that is in a way the very basics!
If you want my opinion, any one who takes more than 2 and a half years to reach their first black belt clearly is not able to learn at very much a speed and is going to find it very hard to get to second thrid and fourth mon and above.
You are right about my use of the word "mastery". I apologize. Really, what we consider a black belt to mean is that you are ready to start finally learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intercepting fist
If you want my opinion, any one who takes more than 2 and a half years to reach their first black belt clearly is not able to learn at very much a speed and is going to find it very hard to get to second thrid and fourth mon and above.
You have a very interesting opinion there.
I'll be sure to share it with Smith Sensei (9th degree, took five years to get black belt), Kupfer Sensei (7th degree, took at least four years), Dombeck Sensei (unsure of his degree, as I don't take karate from him, but I know it took him many years to earn his black belt), Sempai Allen, Sempai Larry, Sempai Dave, and all of the other black belts that I know who took four or more years to get their black belts, yet are happily on their way to achieving something near mastery. (Many Shorin Ryu dojos have belt tests limited by time, meaning that black belt cannot be attained in under three years or so)
I'll say it again. Quality karate is not learned quickly. If all you want to learn are the basics of the punches and kicks, you're looking for a yellow or blue belt. By black belt, you have learned and displayed growing excellence in something like 20 different katas, several weapons, have developed extensive skill with punches, sword-hands, spear-hands, back-fists, front snap kicks, rear snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, hook kicks, elbow strikes, rising blocks, vertical blocks, low blocks, sweeping blocks, outside (soft) blocks, dropping blocks, a dozen or more "drill" goshin-jitsu, begun to learn at least a couple dozen other responses to random, unplanned attacks, breakfalls to the back, side, and front, a tuck-and-roll response to being thrown, several throws, several counter-throws, the ability to free-fight a skilled opponent, displaying proper striking/blocking form, and I'm sure many more things that I don't know about because I've never taken the test.
This list is, of course, based on the dojos that I attend. Others will have other lists. Some, particularly American karate, which focuses on sparring for tournaments, have extremely abridged versions of this list. Others, such as many Shotokan dojos, focus on striking.
Other styles of karate have even larger lists of things. One style is extremely close to Shorin Ryu, but adds regulated breathing and control of one's ki to every single skill mentioned above. Some teach weapons more thoroughly, adding even more time.
Aside from my personal feelings about dabbling in martial arts, there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn the basics. I think, in the end, the real issue here is a misunderstanding. As I said above, a yellow or blue belt will have built the basics of the art in most karate dojos. I know that there are some Japanese arts that have a somewhat different system of grading, where the black belt is the first real belt you get (Toyama Ryu Iaido is one of these). Perhaps you are from one of these arts, originally. I don't know.
To answer what I consider to be the most important question last:
Why not try to learn the basics in the quickest time possible? Rushing things only breeds flaws in training. Flaws in training become weaknesses on the mat, in the street, in the mind, and/or in the soul. These weaknesses can create openings for your opponent to slip inside your guard, whether your opponent is a sparring partner, a mugger, or your own ego.
__________________
"I don't have the knack of victory at all times. I have only learned how not to miss the right moment." Kenshin Uesugi
"If you confer only with people in your own circle (relatives and friends), their opinions will naturally favor you, rendering them useless." Tsunetomo Yamamoto
"In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change."
Thich Nhat Hanh
why are you so keen to reach black belt?
black belt is a sign of great knowledge and understanding that is reached through time of training - if a man trains 6 times a week fro a a year and another man train twice a week for 3 years he will have a better knowledge and understanding.
I would say 4(minimum training multiple times a week))-8 years for black belt in a good school.
In answer to this I would say check out the link provided by Shirindo, it's a good one.
I am currently going to a very good school where if you apply yourselfyou can earn a black belt in about 7-9 years, however i went to a school before this ranked in the top 10 karate schools in the USA, there it would take about 15-20 years of very hard work and determination to achieve that level
I am currently going to a very good school where if you apply yourselfyou can earn a black belt in about 7-9 years, however i went to a school before this ranked in the top 10 karate schools in the USA, there it would take about 15-20 years of very hard work and determination to achieve that level
Wow, that long for such a level....
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
7-9 years aren't that long, at least for me. That timeframe is pretty much the standard where I train. But if you don't grade everytime (like me) it can go up to 10-12 years.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
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Don't worry about how long it takes to get some colored belt. Get to training and work your butt off. The ranks will start showing up almost as if by suprise. If you focus only on the symbol, you are gonna miss the knowledge. Then you'll be yet another wanna be martial artist that tries to convince himself and others he really is. Its the knowledge and understanding that makes a martial artist a martial artist. Not some silly goal.
7-9 years aren't that long, at least for me. That timeframe is pretty much the standard where I train. But if you don't grade everytime (like me) it can go up to 10-12 years.
Wow, that long for such a level.... I was speaking in terms of the posted 15-20 years......
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Don't worry about how long it takes to get some colored belt. Get to training and work your butt off. The ranks will start showing up almost as if by suprise. If you focus only on the symbol, you are gonna miss the knowledge. Then you'll be yet another wanna be martial artist that tries to convince himself and others he really is. Its the knowledge and understanding that makes a martial artist a martial artist. Not some silly goal.
Nice perspective. "So", then the ranks should be done away with.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Don't worry about how long it takes to get some colored belt. Get to training and work your butt off. The ranks will start showing up almost as if by suprise. If you focus only on the symbol, you are gonna miss the knowledge. Then you'll be yet another wanna be martial artist that tries to convince himself and others he really is. Its the knowledge and understanding that makes a martial artist a martial artist. Not some silly goal.
Very good post, WC. That's some advice that a lot of wannabe martial artists I know could use. I'd + rep you if I could.
__________________ "An eye for an eye only blinds the world." - Ghandi
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
Last edited by souldrum71; 05-15-2008 at 10:40 AM.
Black belt in Karate
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