Reing and its Religious inplications

[See-Beyond-The-Flesh]

Hello Everyone

Im an instructor currently teaching shotokan karate and have encountered a problem with Reing.
It seems that reing is prohibited by the muslim faith which has caused many students to refuse to rei like everyone else because the act of bowing has religious implications..
As many of you will know reing is a japanese (martial art) sign of respect. Its causing a divide within the club which is against my beliefs.
What are your thoughts on this? any help from you all would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time

Anthony Jannece

[4right]

You say it's "against my beliefs" , are you Muslim? If so why have you just discovered it?

[See-Beyond-The-Flesh]

its against my beliefs that students should be treated differently because of Religion,race, colour or creed.
No im not muslim, i hold no religion. i have only noticed it because its the first time the act has been questioned through the 7 years the club has been running for training many muslims alike.

[47MartialMan]

Bowing is a form of respect. If there are students who cannot accept this and state it is against their religuion, then they are misled. And nothing will convince them otherwise. Either you excuse them for not bowing, or excuse them entirely. This makes me womder why they choose to study a art from another country outside of their own faith. Let alone choose a art of fighting to begin with.

[WC_Lun]

47MM has a point. You are going to have to decide where to draw the line. You could institute something like the kung fu bow which isn't really a bow. It's more like saying "respect and good luck to you," but it isn't a Chinese system and even then there might be issues. I'm all for working with people and thier different beliefs. Guess it comes down to what you can accept and whether thier not bowing is truly based upon thier beliefs or some kind of power play. I've seen that happen before too.

[Zipper]

I would have to say Rei is a form of respect within the art to your instructor, your opponent, and yourself. It is part of the Martial Art culture of Shotokan. Either they could respect the culture or they can leave. I would not alter the course of training for them or anyone else. When one enters my house they must abid by my rules or leave. It is their choice.

[4right]

See beyond the flesh it's against your beliefs " to treat people differently". Hang with your principles and maybe no one will force you to change. Very few of us get a chance to fight intolerance , good luck.

[WC_Lun]

I fought intolerance once. Intolerance won. Intolerance was too stupid to know when it was beaten

[Zipper]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

I fought intolerance once. Intolerance won. Intolerance was too stupid to know when it was beaten

Know what you mean there!

You can't have a battle of the wits with an unarmed person and you can't fix stupid!

[See-Beyond-The-Flesh]

Thanks for the positive responses.
Im not the overall Sensei but 2nd in line so its really up to him what he wants to do but i feel hes listening to me as i think we are gonna give the student to either train and bow or not train at all.
In many ways this gives good precedence to our club in the way of not letting different religions dictate our teaching, as one said which is actually what i said to the club committee last nite: "its our house and if you are to enter it you abide by our rule otherwise you have the choice to leave"

[RiveraRa]

Originally Posted by See-Beyond-The-Flesh

"its our house and if you are to enter it you abide by our rule otherwise you have the choice to leave"

I agree. There are certain martial arts that I would not practice in due to some of my personal beliefs. But I would never join that club and expect them to change. I would find a different place/style to train.

[47MartialMan]

Decades ago, I had the same issue of bowing with some hardcore religious people. I changed the whole concept and have students recite....

Instructor:
"Why do you (students) bow?"

Students;
"We are happy to Learn"


Instructor:
"Why do I (teacher) bow?"

Students:
"You are happy to Teach"

Anyone else having a further problem, they could leave.

Because they were also disrupting those who were there to learn.


End of problem........

[Chapel]

I guess it really depends on how many students you are going to loose to something as trivial as bowing. If it is so much so that you will be worried about keeping the lights on, then I would say simply come up with something for your school as a replacement. If it is just one or two, then tell them that respect is a huge part of martial arts. If the DMV won't give a blind person a driver's license because he physically cannot see, they why give a black belt to someone who mentally cannot (or down-right refuses to) perform a certain part of your art?

This may seem harsh, but then again, they are damning me to an eternity of torment... so I guess we are even.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Chapel

I guess it really depends on how many students you are going to loose to something as trivial as bowing. If it is so much so that you will be worried about keeping the lights on, then I would say simply come up with something for your school as a replacement. If it is just one or two, then tell them that respect is a huge part of martial arts. If the DMV won't give a blind person a driver's license because he physically cannot see, they why give a black belt to someone who mentally cannot (or down-right refuses to) perform a certain part of your art?This may seem harsh, but then again, they are damning me to an eternity of torment... so I guess we are even.

* Per my preceding post.

Somtimes, people just want to make a issue of something for attention or a "voice".

[See-Beyond-The-Flesh]

hello all

jus thought id let u know we decided to stick wit tradition and told students who would not rei in class (in the politest way) to do it or do it somewhere else.
The student agreed without any fudd whatsoever.

Jus thought id let u know the outcome

Ant