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Styles: TaeKwonDo, Judo, Jujitsu, Shotokan, Sieshin Juku Karate and BJJ
Posts: 1,947
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate
We agree that contracts are simply a retention tool. I don't make people sign contracts anymore. Here in Floriduh, they're basicly useless anyway and not enforceable. Even if you take the person to court, they may or may not show up. If they don't, you automaticly get a judgement....Now you have to try to collect. And that is up to you to find ways to make them pay up. You can sue them till the cows come home, but the decision rides on the judge. Most judges won't make someone pay for services they have not recieved. Basicly, it's not worth it to go after the deadbeats. So, I did away with the contracts. I used to have them(6 month-$75 mo., and 1 yr-$65 mo.), but people flaked out anyway. As I told you before, I get a much better deal with the place I go now, and no contract to deal with. So if I loose my job (which let's face it, is always a possibility in today's economy) I'm not on the hook for something else I won't be able to afford.
Most judges will declare the person obligated to pay out the contract requardless if they attend, simply because they were given a choice! (or atleast in our situation) Yes, it is Your responsiblity to recover your money.. but you can have some banks do this for you, for a small percentage, and if it's alot of students/clients you can "sell" the contracts to a collection agency, again for a percentage, but HEY, atleast you'll get something out of it! If you are suffering to pay your bills, it can help, not to mention set a standard to those who think they can get away with signing a contract, paying LESS money, then dumping you without even making up the difference!!!
BTW, in most states, contracts can be dropped within the first 30days, if the student/consumer decides it was not in their best interest! So, the whole quitting in the first 3 days "shouldn't" apply!
__________________ 'The man who views the world at 50, the same as he did at 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.'- Muhammad Ali
Most judges will declare the person obligated to pay out the contract requardless if they attend, simply because they were given a choice! (or atleast in our situation) Yes, it is Your responsiblity to recover your money.. but you can have some banks do this for you, for a small percentage, and if it's alot of students/clients you can "sell" the contracts to a collection agency, again for a percentage, but HEY, atleast you'll get something out of it! If you are suffering to pay your bills, it can help, not to mention set a standard to those who think they can get away with signing a contract, paying LESS money, then dumping you without even making up the difference!!!
BTW, in most states, contracts can be dropped within the first 30days, if the student/consumer decides it was not in their best interest! So, the whole quitting in the first 3 days "shouldn't" apply!
Ok, I don't know how much you charge for your classes, but...Lets go with $75 per month on a 1 yr contract. The total for the year is $900. Now, lets say the student comes for 4 months and drops out. This leaves 8 months unpaid. This 8 months accounts for $600 for the year. MOST collection agencies charge 50% of the collection for their "fees. (I used to be an apartment manager, so we did this on a regular basis) Now you're down to $300 to collect. The court charges around $95 to file the papers IF you do it yourself, so lets round it up to $100. Now you're down to $200, which you may still NEVER recover.Now, lets move on a bit more. Factor in the gas required to get to and from court. We'll use $50 total in gas. Thats about a tank of gas in a mid sized vehicle. Now you're down to $150. Subtract your time for going to the various court dates. How much do you charge for per hour? How valuable is your time? Lets just say $50 per hour for a private lesson. You will easily spend MORE than 3 hours on this whole deal of recovery. You are now in the hole. All over trying to prove a point to the local community who, let's face it, probably has NO CLUE you are even doing this. Contracts are like door locks. They only keep the honest people honest.
Ok, I don't know how much you charge for your classes, but...Lets go with $75 per month on a 1 yr contract. The total for the year is $900. Now, lets say the student comes for 4 months and drops out. This leaves 8 months unpaid. This 8 months accounts for $600 for the year. MOST collection agencies charge 50% of the collection for their "fees. (I used to be an apartment manager, so we did this on a regular basis) Now you're down to $300 to collect. The court charges around $95 to file the papers IF you do it yourself, so lets round it up to $100. Now you're down to $200, which you may still NEVER recover.Now, lets move on a bit more. Factor in the gas required to get to and from court. We'll use $50 total in gas. Thats about a tank of gas in a mid sized vehicle. Now you're down to $150. Subtract your time for going to the various court dates. How much do you charge for per hour? How valuable is your time? Lets just say $50 per hour for a private lesson. You will easily spend MORE than 3 hours on this whole deal of recovery. You are now in the hole. All over trying to prove a point to the local community who, let's face it, probably has NO CLUE you are even doing this. Contracts are like door locks. They only keep the honest people honest.
In a large city like Tampa, yes, all your points are valid. However, our school is in a small town (about 6000 people), and all those peripheral costs you named are far smaller or non-existent to us. Also, the power of 'word of mouth' in our town is great. So, if we collect on one person who breaks their contract, then everyone in town knows about it within a week. Therefore, it is a valid tool for us. It may not be in a large urban area, but, like so many things we discuss on this forum, circumstances dictate the action taken.
By the way, we charge $40 a month for contracted students and $50 a month for non-contract. That includes three classes per week.
__________________ "An eye for an eye only blinds the world." - Ghandi
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
Styles: TaeKwonDo, Judo, Jujitsu, Shotokan, Sieshin Juku Karate and BJJ
Posts: 1,947
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate
Ok, I don't know how much you charge for your classes, but...Lets go with $75 per month on a 1 yr contract. The total for the year is $900. Now, lets say the student comes for 4 months and drops out. This leaves 8 months unpaid. This 8 months accounts for $600 for the year. MOST collection agencies charge 50% of the collection for their "fees. (I used to be an apartment manager, so we did this on a regular basis) Now you're down to $300 to collect. The court charges around $95 to file the papers IF you do it yourself, so lets round it up to $100. Now you're down to $200, which you may still NEVER recover.Now, lets move on a bit more. Factor in the gas required to get to and from court. We'll use $50 total in gas. Thats about a tank of gas in a mid sized vehicle. Now you're down to $150. Subtract your time for going to the various court dates. How much do you charge for per hour? How valuable is your time? Lets just say $50 per hour for a private lesson. You will easily spend MORE than 3 hours on this whole deal of recovery. You are now in the hole. All over trying to prove a point to the local community who, let's face it, probably has NO CLUE you are even doing this. Contracts are like door locks. They only keep the honest people honest.
Even though, Souldrum, answered alot of your questions. I will try to show my point
In our contracts the client (student) is obligated for ALL monthly late charges accruded, for ALL court costs and for expenses associated with retreaving money on the signed contract!! Now, I'm not saying that every judge or court will rule in your favor, but if you have all the "costs" you've mentioned (driving, time, etc) then you should NOT have to go back to court again. Once the ruling is in your favor, you can/could collect yourself, with a "court order" which in most cases should get the money, but if not, then you can/could go through a local bank or collection agency, some of which only charge 15 to 25 %!
But if you feel that using contracts are just too much for you and your club, then that's fine! My original post was that it's NOT just used in McDojo's to screw people over... Many Legit Schools/Clubs use them, such as OURS
__________________ 'The man who views the world at 50, the same as he did at 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.'- Muhammad Ali
In a large city like Tampa, yes, all your points are valid. However, our school is in a small town (about 6000 people), and all those peripheral costs you named are far smaller or non-existent to us. Also, the power of 'word of mouth' in our town is great. So, if we collect on one person who breaks their contract, then everyone in town knows about it within a week. Therefore, it is a valid tool for us. It may not be in a large urban area, but, like so many things we discuss on this forum, circumstances dictate the action taken.
By the way, we charge $40 a month for contracted students and $50 a month for non-contract. That includes three classes per week.
Which "peripheral cost" are you refering to? The cost of gas? Well, we are looking at far less than originally thought. $40 per month for a year comes to $480, minus 50% for the collection agency's fee equals $240, minus court costs of $100 (may be less depending, but it is usually detirmined by the state) equals $140. How much do you charge for private classes? Use that to detirmine how much to charge for travel time to and from court, time involved in court, and any time you may spend filling out papers for court. I think you will find out you are still in the hole. Plus, in a small community, you will be given the stigma of being a jerk among the community because you went after Bill and made him pay foir classes even though his kid lost interest. I've already played that game. Look up Ridge Manor Florida. Thats where I was located at before moving my dojo to Tampa. It was right next to Dade City. Now, on the books, Dade City looks big. But rest assured, it is quite small. When we had deadbeats, we would send them a letter via certified mail telling them to pay or we would take them to court. They USUALLY paid up, but wehn they didn't, we just wrote it off.
We agree that contracts are simply a retention tool. I don't make people sign contracts anymore. Here in Floriduh, they're basicly useless anyway and not enforceable. Even if you take the person to court, they may or may not show up. If they don't, you automaticly get a judgement....Now you have to try to collect. And that is up to you to find ways to make them pay up. You can sue them till the cows come home, but the decision rides on the judge. Most judges won't make someone pay for services they have not recieved. Basicly, it's not worth it to go after the deadbeats. So, I did away with the contracts. I used to have them(6 month-$75 mo., and 1 yr-$65 mo.), but people flaked out anyway. As I told you before, I get a much better deal with the place I go now, and no contract to deal with. So if I loose my job (which let's face it, is always a possibility in today's economy) I'm not on the hook for something else I won't be able to afford.
Oh sure, no contract like that will hold up 100% in court. But I would never try to sue someone over non-payment to be honest. As I have said, it's not really about the money but at the same time I would like to stay in business. There's a balance there, for sure.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
I don't think contracts are an issue for niche MAs like me and Joe teach. Allot of people give karate and other TMAs lip service because of the McDojo culture. MMA people are a very select group and even combat focused & SD stuff I teach has a specific crowd to cater to.
In Joe's case people come in wanting to learn BJJ and fight in MMA, people who willingly subject themselves to hard conditioning and training often don't flake out.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Which "peripheral cost" are you refering to? The cost of gas?
Mainly gas and the time alloted to deal with the situation. Our courthouse is only about ten miles away, and we don't have to worry about traffic, ever. As LadyFighter mentioned, one court appearance takes care of the job, so we're not talking about many hours before the judge. Also, I wouldn't compare an hour in court to an hour of teaching a private lesson. Instructing a private lesson is far more intensive than any time I've spent in court.
Will people call you a jerk for forcing a deadbeat to pay up? Maybe. But in a service industry that's going to happen no matter what. You're NEVER going to please everyone all the time.
__________________ "An eye for an eye only blinds the world." - Ghandi
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
Last edited by souldrum71; 10-09-2008 at 11:58 AM.
I don't think contracts are an issue for niche MAs like me and Joe teach. Allot of people give karate and other TMAs lip service because of the McDojo culture. MMA people are a very select group and even combat focused & SD stuff I teach has a specific crowd to cater to.
In Joe's case people come in wanting to learn BJJ and fight in MMA, people who willingly subject themselves to hard conditioning and training often don't flake out.
This is true. People signing up for BJJ, MMA, and RBSD programs kind of already know that it's going to be tough. Not many people come to people like us saying "So what's this BJJ stuff all about". They nearly ALWAYS know stuff, even if it's only "I watch UFC".
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
This is true. People signing up for BJJ, MMA, and RBSD programs kind of already know that it's going to be tough. Not many people come to people like us saying "So what's this BJJ stuff all about". They nearly ALWAYS know stuff, even if it's only "I watch UFC".
And on the business end of that; if you sell to a specific group of people who want a very specific thing you have a higher chance of repeat business. Most of my business comes from guys who took karate or hapkido and used traditional weapons but want to streamline their methods or pick up more modern weapons. My firearms and tactical CQB classes are very popular for that reason.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Fascinating, but just to get this back on target, here are my initial questions with what I've learned from this thread:
1. Its failure as stand up in MMA compared to Muy Thai.
This was answered by karate advocates saying that MMA guys were ignorant of how much better TKD kicks are to Muy Thai, because Muy Thai had some succes so why bother learning something new.
I was also told that Karate style kicks are faster than MT kicks and would not be caught like MT kicks. And that Karate kicks are just as powerful as MT kicks.
So karate is just as powerful (if not more powerful) and faster than Muy Thai, and fighters are too ignorant and stuck in their ways to use muy thai.
But his flies in the face of reality. I see the people with the karate backgrounds shifting to muy thai for their striking. I'm not one of these guys that know all the UFC fighters, but it looks like two of the main people who had karate in their backgrounds--Ice Man and GSP--have shifted their main kicks from karate to Muy Thai.
I believe the real answer is that all and all, Muy Thai is a more efficeint, brutal art. The training is also harder. If you want to be able to smash someone quickly using strikes, you would choose it over Karate and TKD.
On the other end of the spectrum, Karate does have a broader self-defense application in terms of not just smashing people, but does give you less brutal options, which is often correct in the street.
Also, Karate as a sport in and of itself is a fine pursuit.
But when it comes to just fighting, in the ring or on the street for life and death situations, you would be wise to foucs on Muy Thai, like the majority of professional MMA trainers and fighters.
2. Its unrealistic training, i.e. marching doing blocks and chambered punches far too slow to do even during sparring.
No one here addressed this point. It's been well established in my mind by now that "live" traiing, with full resistence from day 1 is the correct way to go--which is used in arts like BJJ, JKD, boxing, and I guess Muy Thai--so Karate fails there, but it's easy for it to change: just train more alive. Easy fix.
3. No real grappling, when grappling has been proved to be so essential to fighting.
Either have a full, realistic grappling program or none at all. BJJ grappling is the state of the art in terms of sub grappling. Karate cannot compete with it on the ground, just forget about that. Use strikes as your foundation, and then if you're interested in having a fuller background, take a BJJ class. Karate should just "not go there" in terms of grappling when the system is so far behind and has been defeated on the ground over and over again. Just admit you can't teach that, and that's OK, it's not your focus. Don't resort to "CRAPPLING".
4. Black belt factories: people getting balck belts in 2 years that are kids or have big beer bellies (it's ridiculous).
Karate people need to start dojo storming and cleaning yourselves up from within. If a group of hardcore karate blackbelts went out to these strip mall schools and cleaned them out on video, that's great advertisement and "sorts people out". There is a long traditon of this type of challenge going back to China, Japan, and of course Brazile.
5. Wasting time on forms/ kata. It has very little value if any, but maybe others think it is very helpful... why?
No here gave good reasons to keep doing forms compared to better alternatives (shadow boxing, focus mit striking, or just a cardio workout are all better than marching around in an H pattern).
It was already said that they are more of a routine and a workout, but for me the most important thing about them is the mental training. A well executed kata needs a helluva lot of focus, not to mention the physical aspects like balance, coordination and breathing (yes, I know this can be learnt in other ways). Though I don't know about TKD forms, but the higher level ones in my style and shotokan are pretty demanding physically. I'm not saying they are a very effective tool for developing skills for actual fighting, but they have their unique benefits. Plus with good bunkai instruction you can learn some nice SD stuff from them, though such instruction is VERY hard to find.
Fascinating, but just to get this back on target, here are my initial questions with what I've learned from this thread:
1. Its failure as stand up in MMA compared to Muy Thai.
Well I had thought that I did cover those initial questions. Karate isn't a failure compared to Muay Thai, because they are both somewhat equal in techniques; a punch is a puncp and a kick is kick. They have different rules as sports; and thats were modern karate-do is lacking.
Now for Karate-jutsu thats a whole different bag of bones...
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashlock
2. Its unrealistic training, i.e. marching doing blocks and chambered punches far too slow to do even during sparring.
Again this as been explained by others and you ignored those facts, chambered punchs are taught to teach hip movement. Is there better ways to teach hip movement (sure). Again allot of those "marching blocks" as you put them have the purpose of building up the muscles for blocking, but more importantly those blocks have alternative uses as grappling techniques.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashlock
3. No real grappling, when grappling has been proved to be so essential to fighting.
How do you define grappliong? If you mean submission wrestling then, no. If you are refering to a few general purpose joint-locks and chokes then yes they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashlock
4. Black belt factories: people getting balck belts in 2 years that are kids or have big beer bellies (it's ridiculous).
So an NFL lineman wouldn't have the athelic ability to throw a punch? Interesting... Big guts has more to do with improper eating then in physical fittness. As for kids with black belts, thats a shame but a shame no one can stop.
Dojo storming works great, until the cops charge you with racheteering, extortion and a hoast of other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashlock
5. Wasting time on forms/ kata. It has very little value if any, but maybe others think it is very helpful... why?
I've addressed this; kata is a form of exercise. It also acts as a form of mental exercise if done properly, somewhat like moving meditation/reflex conditioning. Are there better ways? Yes, but then again all MAs lack somewhere and do not change so why worry about it? Each art is a different flavor and is no more better or worst then vanella or chocolet...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
I'm not saying they are a very effective tool for developing skills for actual fighting, but they have their unique benefits.
I'm sure ballet and roller-blading also have unique benefits for developing skills that aren't very effective for fighting. In fact, as someone who has taken ballet, it is harder training than most martial arts!
But when you shell out money to your dojo, you want the most efficient training which will help you in the endeavour you're interested in: self defense and fighting.
Kata fail for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torre
Plus with good bunkai instruction you can learn some nice SD stuff from them, though such instruction is VERY hard to find.
And very hard to apply because of over-stylization and being archaic.
This is very optimistic thinking, but a bit naive to be perfectly honest.
The success of a school has little to do with Quality Instruction. Seriously. It has EVEYTHING to do with marketing and program structure.
There is a basic number or average of students you can expect to keep over a length of time, and that number goes down over a longer period of time. Most people will take ANY physical activity for about 1 year and then drop out. This has absolutely nothing to do with the activity, it's facility, it's owners or instructors.
So, if you have that average number bagged, you calculate that into your projections for NEW members needed every month or so.
One very good way to encourage someone to stick with something is to remind them that they are paying for it. This is true of any membership type of service. If it's free, they won't show up as much. The contract is just a method of ensuring that 1 year minimum longevity out of a person because if left up on their own, they might only give it a couple months and then leave.
So while as a consumer you guys might not like contracts, from a business perspective it is a tried and proven method for keeping your business going and anyone NOT doing them in this industry will fail.
Oh, and $60/mo for BJJ is REALLY good! We haven't seen prices like that in my area since 1998.
Why Karate?
Big guts has more to do with improper eating then in physical fittness. As for kids with black belts, thats a shame but a shame no one can stop.
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