Why Karate?

[Them's Fighting Words]

Hiya Flashlock, here's a link to a similar topic.

Karate for real life fighting?

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by flashlock

I want to know why people still take karate.

I have many problems with kartate and its related branches (TKD, TSD, Kempo, etc.). Maybe there's something I'm missing. I sincerely want to understand why people still are passionate about this system.

1. Its failure as stand up in MMA compared to Muy Thai.
3. No real grappling, when grappling has been proved to be so essential to fighting.
.

How exaclty are Karate and TKD realted? What is TSD?

You do realise that Muay Thai sucks when grappling? No over body throws and no ground grappling (in fact, no ground game at all). Sure they clinch but that isn't exactly high level grappling.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

How exaclty are Karate and TKD realted? What is TSD?

You do realise that Muay Thai sucks when grappling? No over body throws and no ground grappling (in fact, no ground game at all). Sure they clinch but that isn't exactly high level grappling.

TSD is Tang Soo Do I believe. And spot on about the MT.

But you can't really lump Karate as a general McMartial Art because of some belt factories. That's like saying all Christians are violent racists if you look at KKK. And look at GSP.

[JackG]

"I have many problems with kartate and its related branches (TKD, TSD, Kempo, etc.). Maybe there's something I'm missing. I sincerely want to understand why people still are passionate about this system."
Firstly TSD and TKD aren't branches of karate.
1. Its failure as stand up in MMA compared to Muy Thai.
Look up Neil Grove traditional Goju-Ryu fighter 6-1-0 MMa record or Edgeleson Lua from the same dojo and Kimbo slice just got KO by a karate fighter,
2. Its unrealistic training, i.e. marching doing blocks and chambered punches far too slow to do even during sparring.
That chambering isn't how a punch is supposed to be thrown its a teaching tool to get the student to use there hips like in boxing. Unrealistic this is often where karate has been made soft by people to encourage more to start up , Look at kyokushin fighters in k1 often have beat Muay thai fighters.Andy Hug being the first K-1 fighter with a karate background to win the K-1 and 3-year consecutive champion Semmy Schilt also comes from a full contact karate style known as Ashihara where low kicks are prioritized as technique in competitions.

3. No real grappling, when grappling has been proved to be so essential to fighting.
Traditional older styles had/have grappling.
4. Black belt factories: people getting balck belts in 2 years that are kids or have big beer bellies (it's ridiculous).
Not every karate school is like this your making a generalization based on mcdojos
5. Wasting time on forms/ kata. It has very little value if any, but maybe others think it is very helpful... why?
Kata is often regarded very highly for example by the dojo which Neil Grove trains at and


your view is based on mcdojos not real karate, don't lumber everyone into one group because I must admit the majority may determine your views, but there is excellence in the minority.

[Magister]

Originally Posted by JackG

Firstly TSD and TKD aren't branches of karate.

Sorry to back up the apparent novice, but they are indeed derivatives or branches of Karate.

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Magister

Sorry to back up the apparent novice, but they are indeed derivatives or branches of Karate.

Really ? When I think of derivatives I'm thinking recently i.e judo and aikido from Jitsu , aren't both those korean arts quite old , I'm happy to be proven wrong but IMO like judo and aikido they are arts in there own right.

[Magister]

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

How exaclty are Karate and TKD realted? What is TSD?

Tae Kwon Do was the term used to refer to a number of Martial Arts dojangs teaching in Korea during the Japanese Occupation. Most of the teachers were trained by the Japanese, or in Japan. Karate went under the name of Kong Soo Do (Empty Hand Way), Tae Soo Do (Foot and Hand Way - now a term trademarked by Joo Bang Lee as his simlified Hwarang Do syllabus), Tang Soo Do (Way of the Chinese Hand), or Tae Kwon Do. Tae Kwon Do was later considered the term to be used to refer to the method practiced by Choi Hong Hi, but the name is not unique to his method. He is said to have amalgamated Tae Kyon skills he had learned from his calligraphy teacher with his Shotokan Karate.

Hwang Kee, the founder of Tang Soo Do, student Long Fist Boxing in China (with a so-called "Master Yang") and whilst working for a Railway company studied the Katas of Karate from Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan. The majority of what is now known as Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do, at least within the Moo Duk Kwan is based upon Hwang Kee's experience from a Funakoshi's book. Moreover, he introduced more "Koreanisation" into the style by studying the Mooye Dobo TongJi and adding the Naega Kwon Bop methods. He named this Hwa Soo Do (Way of the Flower Hand), before returning to the name Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by flashlock

I want to know why people still take karate.

I have many problems with kartate and its related branches (TKD, TSD, Kempo, etc.). Maybe there's something I'm missing. I sincerely want to understand why people still are passionate about this system.

1. Its failure as stand up in MMA compared to Muy Thai.

2. Its unrealistic training, i.e. marching doing blocks and chambered punches far too slow to do even during sparring.

3. No real grappling, when grappling has been proved to be so essential to fighting.

4. Black belt factories: people getting balck belts in 2 years that are kids or have big beer bellies (it's ridiculous).

5. Wasting time on forms/ kata. It has very little value if any, but maybe others think it is very helpful... why?

Thank you for answering these points...

Flashlock, you seem to have a very limited knowledge of actual karate, dude. Which is why, since you have made several inaccurate generalizations, it's a good thing you've come to this forum to ask questions.
Here's my answers:
1. How has karate not 'stood up in MMA'? Plenty of pro fighters claim a background or some striking training in karate.
2. Yes, there are plenty of schools out there who shy away from full-contact sparring and realistic training, but not everyone falls under that category. I trained in a hardcore Japanese karate style in Yokosuka, Japan for just over two years, and I promise you we did plenty of full-contact, no-pads sparring.
3. A dojo teaching a complete karate system WILL include takedowns and groundfighting. There are even many sweeps, joint-locks, and throws imbedded in karate katas. In kumite in Japan, we were allowed to grab and sweep for points during matches.
4. I agree that it has become ridiculous that there are McDojos out there that sell black belts to unqualified individuals, but, once again, you can't judge ALL karate based on those bad examples.
5. Kata are a valuable training tool if they are used properly and taught properly. It's basically a simplified way to teach combinations, proper breathing, and individual techniques to students who may have to train alone.

There's far more to karate-do than you are aware.

[ladyfighter]

There's no sense in me waisting my time on typing what most others have already pointed out!

With that said, in short: MMA was/is derived from TMA, so if TMA sucks.. ie. so does MMA!

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

There's no sense in me waisting my time on typing what most others have already pointed out!

With that said, in short: MMA was/is derived from TMA, so if TMA sucks.. ie. so does MMA!

I am not sure that logic is sound, but I understand where you are going with it.

Regardless of how much defending Karate is getting from most of you on here, you have to agree that Flashlock has a point.

What you guys are saying is that Flashlock is categorizing Karate based on a few McDojos out there. But I contend it's the other way around.

There are a higher number of bad Karate schools out there than there are quality schools, at least that has been my experience. I can find a TKD/Karate school in every single strip mall in my area. And I am in an extremely populate area. And of those, there are maybe two or three that are known to be actual quality schools that produce real fighters.

So if the majority of Karate schools out there are McDojos, then that means that "real" Karate is essentially gone. 47MM can talk as much as he wants about how tough Karate was in the 50s or whatever, but we're not in the 50s anymore. We're also not living in Japan.

If you're a Karate guy and you're mad at Flashlock for what he's saying, I would say be mad at your fellow practicioners out there for turning what you love into what it is today.

Now you see why we BJJ guys go after the frauds so hardcore, we absolutely do not want to see this happen to BJJ. It's up to US to stop this by enforcing integrity with what we do.

[complete]

That's too much stereotyping to put all the Karate schools as McDojos and combine TKD along with it.

Yes, we are not in the 50's and for that matter, we are not in the time of hand to hand combat war where TMA originated from and it has adopted to be taught to general public and even kids. (Do you think they taught the same stuff to kids back in the days when they were training to kill their enemies?)

I do admire what the BJJ practitioners are doing to keep the integrity of their art. Give it some time. BJJ hasn't been around in the US as much as other TMA has. I hope it doesn't but it wasn't the TMA teachers and fellow students that made it what it is. I think it has a lot to do with money, culture, marketing, etc.

I don't want to get off the subject but a lot of the authentic food from other countries have been "americanized" to be more accepted by the general public and its certainly not the same as it was originally intended. In some ways, martial arts have been "americanized" as well.

One of the hardest thing for the TKD martial arts instructors in US is to learn to adopt to teach it the "american" way. If they do it the same way they did in Korea, either they'd be out of business or get arrested.

[Gambatte Karate]

Sigh...I can almost guarantee that this whole thread is greared toward me in an effort to try to oust me and my false training. I think i'm going to just go /myself because I have obviously wasted the last 12-13 years of my life training in something that is utterly useless.


Bah!


Look, a TRUE martial art system has MUCH more than just what is at the surface. In my system, there is grappling. It is just taught at the higher levels. It seems to me that you think that the BB is "the end" of the road in Karate so to speak. It isn't. At least not in my system. My system, Shu Do Kan Karate Do, can (and has) evolve(d). Originally, it was what was taught to Toyama by Itosu. The same guy who taught Funokoshi. The system was originally quite incomplete. However, Toyama was open minded and learned from several "masters" of the arts(as did Funokoshi). Some of which were notable masters of Naha-te, and Tomare-te. Some of his teachers were Aragaki, Azato, Chibana, Higaonna, Oshiro, and Tana. So he was quite skilled and quite eclectic in his martial arts. Because he was so diverse in his martial arts knowledge, the Japanese govt gave him the right to promote to any rank in any style of Okinawan karate. So he was not just a bad a$$, he was one of THE bad a$$es at the time. As such, when Toyama taught one Walter Todd, he taught quite a bit of martial arts and blended it. Walter Todd also trained in other arts. Aikido, Wado-Ryu, Judo, and Shoto Kan are a few of these. Walter Todd taught a man named (Sensei)Morris Mack who taught my instructor (Sensei) Isais Valdovinos. Now, I don't know how many years Sensei Mack has been training or every instructor he has had. I don't know every instructor that Sensei Isais has had either. But I DO know that they both had more than one instructor. I also know thta they have made it a point to add to the Shu Do Kan system. As I have told you in another thread, the Shu Do Kan system DOES have grappling in it, but it is not the main focus of the system. If you want to know a bit more about it, please go here: Gambatte Karate Tampa, Florida
It will help to answer a few of your questions.

So to answer your question, I still train in this "karate" system because it is all encompassing. It has a little in it form almost EVERY art including ju jitsu (although not BJJ...YET), aikido, judo, etc. The problem is that too many people view the BB as the end of the journey. It is not. But you wouldn't know that because according to another of your posts, you never attained your BB in TKD. You were (according to you) a week away from it. Trust me when I tell you that the BB is not the end of the road. It simply means you have a firm grasp on the basics of a very complex system. BJJ is quite different in that a BB means you have a firm grasp on even the most difficult techniques in the system. In my understanding, it takes anywhere from 8 to 15 years to attain a BB in BJJ. (Joe will correct me if I'm wrong or out of turn here) Well, I have 12-13 years of training in Shu Do Kan Karate. I am nearing my test for 3rd dan. I'm not completely ready yet, so I am not asking to test yet. When I feel that I am ready, I will ask. If my instructor denies me, I will wait until he tells me I am ready. In my system, it takes a MINIMUM of 3 and 1/2 years (but most often 4) to attain the rank of BB. Now, this rank is not a full Shodan. It is below Shodan, yet it is not a "youth rank". You are still simply an Ichi Kyu on paper, but you are called a "Shodan-ho". Once you have reached BB, and been at that rank for a year, you MIGHT be asked to test for Shodan. This all depends on the individuals attitude, skill level, and general system knowledge.

There are (sadly) many BB factories out there. BJJ has only been around since Helio Gracie. It has not been in America as a marketable martial art for nearly as long as other TMA's yet. As it becomes more and more popularized, it stands the possibility to begin to do the same thing. The only to combat it, is to do the same thing that Joe does here and call out anyone who may be a fake and challenge their credentials. However, in our litagous society, it is difficult to contiuously do so for fear of legal repricussions.

[Sake Sipper]

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

Look, a TRUE martial art system has MUCH more than just what is at the surface. In my system, there is grappling. It is just taught at the higher levels.

I'm not here to bash karate, but the whole "it's there, it's just taught at the 'higher levels'" thing is something a lot of kungfu systems claim as well and is a big cop-out/fraud if you ask me.

[Gambatte Karate]

Originally Posted by Sake Sipper

I'm not here to bash karate, but the whole "it's there, it's just taught at the 'higher levels'" thing is something a lot of kungfu systems claim as well and is a big cop-out/fraud if you ask me.

I can't speak for any other systems. I don't train in them. But I assure you that our system has more advanced techniques at higher levels. We teach some basic elbow techniques at lower levels(basicly about the first year). Then at higher belt ranks (the 2nd year) we teach the finishing parts of those techniques progressivly. So you learn the basic movements and the initial part of the technique forst. You learn the basics and become proficient at them, then move on to the more advanced version. This continues on and on. The techniques you learn after attaining BB are more difficult, but have been built upon the ones you learned at lower ranks.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

So if the majority of Karate schools out there are McDojos, then that means that "real" Karate is essentially gone. 47MM can talk as much as he wants about how tough Karate was in the 50s or whatever, but we're not in the 50s anymore. We're also not living in Japan.
If you're a Karate guy and you're mad at Flashlock for what he's saying, I would say be mad at your fellow practicioners out there for turning what you love into what it is today.

Now you see why we BJJ guys go after the frauds so hardcore, we absolutely do not want to see this happen to BJJ. It's up to US to stop this by enforcing integrity with what we do.

First point, not everyone on here is living in such a suit-crazy country as the U.S. So, although WE are not living in Japan, if you talk to someone like SirokoFighter you'll probably find a much different description of what most dojos near his home are like.

Second, while I too respect the fact that BJJ black belts adamantly defend the integrity of their art, it's only a matter of time before you see BJJ treated the same as karate. I could point to the fact that we already see frauds on this forum who claim to have black belts in BJJ, or I could tell you about the wannabe MMA clubs that I know of who profess to teach and train in BJJ when no one in their clubs has ANY training under a qualified instructor. If something is popular and people think they can make money off of it, that thing is going to be warped and tainted by commercialism.