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Here's a kicker. If instinct in not to be considered as non-taught, not learned (how could it be), per a mother snake, spider, etc, do not "teach" their younglings how to hunt-etc., how does a human infant "know" how to suckle it's mother's breast/nipple?
I think you are confusing instinct with knowledge. It is the instinct to eat which makes the animal hunt, the parents merely teach it to do it well.
It is the instinct to eat which teaches the human to suckle; when presented with something in its mouth and knowing nothing other than the drives to stay alive, it eats and sleeps. Voila - it suckles.
Instinct is a set of innate drives required by any living organism in order to maintain its own life. Since conflict with other organisms has the possibility to end an organisms life, it should be no surprise that fighting is instinctual.
Should I understand that you agree with Aquinas and his Tabula Rassa?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
A mother caring for her child was taught the things of motherhood from her mother....
So the bird which continually returns to its nest (to feed its young), was taught to do so by the rememberance of its mother?
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
Last edited by Magister; 10-22-2008 at 06:00 AM.
Reason: spelling
Personally In a SD situation i have never had time to pop into the lotus position and plug in some whale music before I can defend myself but maybe thats just me...
I laughed my a$$ off when I read this. Thanks JackG, I needed that!
__________________
"Only by making our beliefs into a living faith which guides us from day-to-day can we maintain the moral strength to overcome the obstacles and hardships which lie ahead." --- E. Turner
I think you are confusing instinct with knowledge. It is the instinct to eat which makes the animal hunt, the parents merely teach it to do it well.
It is the instinct to eat which teaches the human to suckle; when presented with something in its mouth and knowing nothing other than the drives to stay alive, it eats and sleeps. Voila - it suckles.
Instinct is a set of innate drives required by any living organism in order to maintain its own life. Since conflict with other organisms has the possibility to end an organisms life, it should be no surprise that fighting is instinctual.
Should I understand that you agree with Aquinas and his Tabula Rassa?
So the bird which continually returns to its nest (to feed its young), was taught to do so by the rememberance of its mother?
Is it correct to say that the instinct of blood is to absorb oxygen? That the instinct of the liver is to secrete bile when it detects food in the small intestine? That it is the instinct of a heart to beat? It is a stretch to consider these chemical and physiological reactions as instincts.
Is it correct to say that the instinct of an eye's iris is to dilate when in bright light? That the instinct of a hand is to withdraw from fire? That the instinct of a falling cat is to land on its feet?
Or are these reflex responses found in multicelled animals with nervous systems, and occur for chemical and physiological reasons that scientists can fully study by concentrating on the creature itself. The environment has a say on when these reactions will occur, but not much say on how to modify or prevent the reactions. You can perhaps sharpen your reflexes through practice.
Is it correct to say that the instinct of blood is to absorb oxygen? That the instinct of the liver is to secrete bile when it detects food in the small intestine? That it is the instinct of a heart to beat? It is a stretch to consider these chemical and physiological reactions as instincts.
Is it correct to say that the instinct of an eye's iris is to dilate when in bright light? That the instinct of a hand is to withdraw from fire? That the instinct of a falling cat is to land on its feet?
Or are these reflex responses found in multicelled animals with nervous systems, and occur for chemical and physiological reasons that scientists can fully study by concentrating on the creature itself. The environment has a say on when these reactions will occur, but not much say on how to modify or prevent the reactions. You can perhaps sharpen your reflexes through practice.
All your examples are parts of the organism, which itself is the sum of those parts. We cannot breakdown the system into little parts, because each is a part which relies upon the organisms instincts to sustain them. The Instinct to eat is designed to keep all those parts alive. The heart does not have a need for blood, it does not require anything, it does what it does because without it the entire system would cease to work. Likewise, the liver secretes bile, but it does not require an instinct to do this. They are cogs in a machine in which the failure of any one of them will mean disaster for the organism as a system.
An instinct should be rightly considered "an Evolutionary Stable Strategy (ESS) designed to ensure the survival of the organism"
In which case, the only example you gave of an instinct was "of a hand...withdraw from fire.."
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
1. An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: the spawning instinct in salmon; altruistic instincts in social animals.
2. A powerful motivation or impulse.
3. An innate capability or aptitude: an instinct for tact and diplomacy.
Lets try something new; basic definitions. By those definitions we have an instinct to eat, have sex, avoid pain and threat of pain. More basically the reptile brain drives; food and sex and the two reptile emotional repsonses fear and anger.
It is our instinct to avoid pain; fear of pain, this can drive us out harsh weather or cause us to reflexively block a punch. The more we lose are fear of the punch the more less we respond to the emotional drive. The environment provides the stimulis and the emotion the drive and reflexes carry out the action.
Can we modify our reflexes to carry out actions in certain ways, yes... But, we cannot reprogram the instinct to withdrawn from pain. We can condition a thresh hold for pain, but we cannot completely blockout to instinct to withdraw from pain.
Likewise, we cannot shut off the drive to defend ourselves. Or to eat...
From: http://www.co-bw.com/STW/STW_L13.htm The human brain is 3-brains-in-1. It is a tri-three, une-one, a "triune" brain. Just like an evolution-shaped peach composed of stone, flesh and skin, we each contain a reptile brain surrounded by our mammal brain, both of which are enveloped by our primate brain.
The reptile core emerged out of the spinal cord of worms 350 million years ago during what the geologists call the Carboniferous period of the Paleozoic era. The mammal brain bubbled up around that nub 225 million years back during the Triassic period of the Mesozoic era. The primate brain extruded to wrap around the lower pair 70 million years ago during the Paleocene epoch of the Tertiary period of the Cenozoic era. The primate brain contains the frontal lobes -- which bulged out practically yesterday, 700,000 years back during the Pleistocene epoch of the Quarternary period of Cenozoic era. Only now are we beginning to learn why.
Each brain is connected to the others. Yet, each brain functions separately from the others. Each brain is a biological computer which has its own unique intelligence, its own personal understanding of itself, its own sense of time controlling how best to behave, its own meaning for being alive, its own memory of how best to survive, its own special behaviors to express itself and its own mode of living Life. Thus, your daily behaviors of sleeping, waking, eating, working, communicating, defending, growing, loving, breeding and relaxing are specific mixtures of precisely identifiable reptile brain reflexes, mammal brain reflexes and primate brain reflexes.
Each brain does two things: It operates independently of the other two and it operates in cooperation with the other two. In this way, some human behaviors are purely reptilian, mammalian or primate, while other human behaviors are precise percentage combinations of automatic reptile, mammal and primate reactions. By learning the exact behaviors generated by each simple brain, you can analyze the exact percentage of each brain's contribution added to form any person's complex human action, thought or emotion.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Instincts are programmed forms of behavior that allow an animal to function intuitively and quickly. The controversy for instincts arises mainly in how they apply to humans. Are humans pre-programmed with inherited instincts that will make it highly impossible for them to take control of their behaviors and become a peaceful and wise species, different to the way their instincts would seemingly dictate?
To answer this question, it is important to realise that the most important function of an instinct is to allow the animal to attune tightly with its niche. Of less concern to this attunement relationship is how the instinct formed, and who contributed most to the instinct, the animal or the environment. Whichever half of the attunement equation is likely to give the most reliable instinct, is the one that evolution will ask to contribute most. If appropriate, each instinct in each animal may have a different level of contribution from either party. Those living in short-term and simple niches may not have the time to learn, and are better off inheriting most of their instincts.
Instincts are programmed forms of behavior that allow an animal to function intuitively and quickly. The controversy for instincts arises mainly in how they apply to humans. Are humans pre-programmed with inherited instincts that will make it highly impossible for them to take control of their behaviors and become a peaceful and wise species, different to the way their instincts would seemingly dictate?
To answer this question, it is important to realise that the most important function of an instinct is to allow the animal to attune tightly with its niche. Of less concern to this attunement relationship is how the instinct formed, and who contributed most to the instinct, the animal or the environment. Whichever half of the attunement equation is likely to give the most reliable instinct, is the one that evolution will ask to contribute most. If appropriate, each instinct in each animal may have a different level of contribution from either party. Those living in short-term and simple niches may not have the time to learn, and are better off inheriting most of their instincts.
Well put!
Its annoying that having just read this post and your reference to environment that it seems as though my post on the other thread was made from this impetus...
So how do we steer this thread back to topic?
__________________ "Tradition comes from when a master realises a truth, then teaches it to others; his source was the world around him. The tradition begins when students follow the doctrine but fail to see the truth it teaches. Martial Arts, like religion, are now the gospel.
So I assert; Seek not to follow in the footsteps of great men, but seek that which they themselves had sought." Magister, on the Eskirmological Law of Institutionalisation
Well, while I was reading I could know that, if we want to have a better developed "sen no sen", it's important to have a good instinct and reflexes. But I think that we need to develop both things ina way to know how to work on a combat with instincts or reflexes.
I guess that we need to developed our reflexes in way that they seem like instincts thing. Whta I want to say is that we need to have faster reflexes to have a better sen no sen.
If this it's right, so how to develop our reflexes??
Well, while I was reading I could know that, if we want to have a better developed "sen no sen", it's important to have a good instinct and reflexes. But I think that we need to develop both things ina way to know how to work on a combat with instincts or reflexes.
I guess that we need to developed our reflexes in way that they seem like instincts thing. Whta I want to say is that we need to have faster reflexes to have a better sen no sen.
If this it's right, so how to develop our reflexes??
Here is an idea ARCC, I video tape my students sparring and during scenario drills. Both the people playing "attacker" & "defender" everyone has "tells" and if you can pick up on them in general patterns of behavior you can better expect to deal with situations. If you monitor how you react subcontiously, you'll notice certain people will do the same thing.
For example; many people will broadcast their intentions by "getting into character" these are people who are usually trying to posture. If you can spot someone trying to posture by their body language you can spot a potential threat.
For another example; I get what my g/f called "those black eyes" and what it is, is that I actively control myself to not show my emotions. So when I get angery or I'm about to hit lash-out and the adrinoline hits right before my pupils dialate and I get very quiet. I also don't talk talk trash if I'm there to fight. So my tells are a) the eyes and b) the being quiet. Of course I'm also quiet around people I don't know and I'm trying to get a feel for.
Its little things like that which you need to build on. And I'll tell you the same thing I tell my students; If something doesn't feel right its not...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Sen no sen
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