Not Dissing Karate.... Honest!

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by nwt

"Kata" is the Japanese word for "form" without form i dont think that anyone would be able to train in martial arts properly. Form teaches us the balance between fighting and martial arts.

Not sure I agree with this at all. While martial arts is about more than just fighting, the core of it IS fighting. The rest of what you believe is martial arts is a direct byproduct of that fighting. The fighting teaches you the rest.

Form is an excercise to keep the body in condition, train the body particular movements, train the mind particular concepts indicitive of the chosen style, and perhaps breath regulation. Forms are a training tool. Nothing more and nothing less. Too many people think that form is the bedrock of a system, teaching a person to fight or even more odd, teaching a person morals or phylosophies.

[Amski]

I know I'm not all MA experiency, but what I view kata as is a way to train in MA movement, not to train in MA. I learn Kama Kata, but that in no way makes me a martial artist. I would be OBLITERATED on the street in a real fight, unless I was fighting 14 year old girls or something. *laughs*
I train in kata for health, mobility, breathing etc etc. I do not train in Kata to defend or attack, which is pretty damn important in Martial Arts! Hence the term, Martial.

[nwt]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Not sure I agree with this at all. While martial arts is about more than just fighting, the core of it IS fighting. The rest of what you believe is martial arts is a direct byproduct of that fighting. The fighting teaches you the rest.

Form is an excercise to keep the body in condition, train the body particular movements. Too many people think that form is the bedrock of a system, teaching a person to fight or even more odd, teaching a person morals or phylosophies.

I think that form and technique is the bedrock of martial arts without it, without the philosophies its really just fighting. I dont believe that form keeps the body in condition at all thats what conditioning is for, it would help you with training the particular movements and breathing as such i just think that the spiritual side of martial arts, form and technique is more important than teaching someone to fight. If they want to be a martial artist. I dont believe that fighting is the core of martial arts at all.
Otherwise every person that can fight weather they train martial arts or not could consider themselves as martial artist.


Visitor comment: London Kung Fu Club commented to Kung Fu · September 23rd, 2005 @ 6:13 am

Shaolin Kung Fu is as vast and complex as the universe. An ancient Shaolin Master once said: “Study Shaolin Style in great depth, then absorb the special qualities of other styles. Set for your high ideals. Study for wisdom and train the body. Never fear evil. Always fight for Justice.”

http://www.martial-arts-info.com/comment/120/89

Sounds a bit more like form than fighting to me.

[Chad]

When it comes to MA I'm quite deep as well, but when it comes to fighting it keeps me sane knowing that we are just two skilled sacks of meat hitting or grabbing each other, and that he has no phsycilogical advantage over me, regardless of size or status

[nwt]

Originally Posted by Chad

When it comes to MA I'm quite deep as well, but when it comes to fighting it keeps me sane knowing that we are just two skilled sacks of meat hitting or grabbing each other, and that he has no phsycilogical advantage over me, regardless of size or status

It depends how you look at philosophies

Famous quotation from Bruce Lee:
"No matter what you want to do, dont be nervous
(You should not let your muscles nor your mind be affected by nerves) Just keep calm
no illusion and no imagination
but to apprehend the actual situation you are in and find a way to deal with it
no excessive action is needed. Just keep your body and mind relaxed to deal with the outside emergency."

If someone is fighting a person and he/she believes actions like these dont you think he/she might have a better chance of winning against someone who doesnt? Same skill level ofcourse.

[Amski]

You could be as wise as buddha, but if you try to fight and you don't know how to punch, you're going to end up bruised.

[nwt]

Originally Posted by Amski

You could be as wise as buddha, but if you try to fight and you don't know how to punch, you're going to end up bruised.

If you were as wise as buddah then you wouldnt ever have to fight.
And do you mean if you dont know how to punch with the correct form and technique that youre going to end up bruised?
Thats not entirely true, your forgetting about spirit it goes a long way in a fight you could have a spirit the size of a peanut and i could have a spirit the size of the universe you might have more physical ability, dosent necessarily mean your going to beat me.

[Amski]

Sometimes a wise man has to fight, so long as he fights for the right reasons.
If I can punch, and you can't(this is NOT true lol but theoretically) then I would win. Sorry but it's true. I don't honestly see how you can argue that spirit entirely beats technique/stamina/form/physical ability.

If I, as trained as I am, went against a fully trained fighter, I would not win regardless of how much spirit I had, I would get pulverised. Even if I was fighting for all the right reasons, fully believing in myself and my cause, calm and focussed... I would still get my backside handed to me. Fact of life.
I won't pretend to know everything sbout fighting. I think spirit is important in that it helps you to CONTINUE to fights when the odds are against you, to believe in the knowledge you have and to trust your instinct in a fight. It is not a replacement for real knowledge, skills learnt, and training.
Spirit is not an invisible shield you can wrap around yourself it is a driving force behind the power you already have, something to tap into and use and to contantly support you.
I do believe that with two well matched opponents spirit will help whoever has it to win, but I don't think that it can replace time and effort and training because that is a valuable thing too. Fights are physical, but within yourself, they are mental.

[WC_Lun]

Being a good fighter or a bad fighter has nothing to do with it. It is the process of fighting that teaches, not form or training of any other type. As someone who practices both the middle way and Shaolin martial arts, I can assure you, no one will ever understand either by just practicing forms. The fighting is an integral part of understanding truth in martial arts. Forms tend to confuse that more than make it clearer. That's why you see so many guys that have only done forms doing the old man on the moutain act when they don't really have much of a clue.

[MilkManX]

It all depends on the Karate.

I practice Enshin Kaikan. Its an offshoot of Kyokushin via Ashihara Kaikan.

We only have 6 Katas

We do basics and lots of drills and Sparring.

Kata is done maybe once a week.

Here is one.

YouTube - Kata

[Amski]

*laughs*
I won't pretened to be all mountain monk wise, I have been in physical 'fights' but no MA fights, and I honestly think that the physically stronger person will win. In my experience they have.
And kata does not replace real experience, like sparring/fighting/whatever you train with. I don't think you can learn MA on your own because you need to fight, you need to practice what martial arts IS.
I practice kama forms. I do NOT do martial arts, and I will clarify this point repeatedly so people don't think i'm up-my-own-assing on the comments I make *laughs* I'm just sharing my opinions.

[nwt]

Originally Posted by Amski

Sometimes a wise man has to fight, so long as he fights for the right reasons.
If I can punch, and you can't(this is NOT true lol but theoretically) then I would win. Sorry but it's true. I don't honestly see how you can argue that spirit entirely beats technique/stamina/form/physical ability.

If I, as trained as I am, went against a fully trained fighter, I would not win regardless of how much spirit I had, I would get pulverised. Even if I was fighting for all the right reasons, fully believing in myself and my cause, calm and focussed... I would still get my backside handed to me. Fact of life.
I won't pretend to know everything sbout fighting. I think spirit is important in that it helps you to CONTINUE to fights when the odds are against you, to believe in the knowledge you have and to trust your instinct in a fight. It is not a replacement for real knowledge, skills learnt, and training.
Spirit is not an invisible shield you can wrap around yourself it is a driving force behind the power you already have, something to tap into and use and to contantly support you.
I do believe that with two well matched opponents spirit will help whoever has it to win, but I don't think that it can replace time and effort and training because that is a valuable thing too. Fights are physical, but within yourself, they are mental.

First off a person man, woman or child never HAS to fight it is allways an option, you fight or you dont fight those are the choices no matter what the instance may be. And i never said spirit was a replacement for knowledge, skills learnt, and training, i was stating that if 2 same skilled fighters had fought and 1 had more spirit than the other he would probably win and i didnt even say he would win i just think its more of a possibility.

so this would be me: technique/stamina/form/spirit. and this would be you: technique/stamina/form/physical ability

What does physical ability mean anyway? (like you can do the splits further than me?)
but hey you guys are entitled to your own opinions.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by nwt

I think that form and technique is the bedrock of martial arts without it, without the philosophies its really just fighting. I dont believe that form keeps the body in condition at all thats what conditioning is for, it would help you with training the particular movements and breathing as such i just think that the spiritual side of martial arts, form and technique is more important than teaching someone to fight. If they want to be a martial artist. I dont believe that fighting is the core of martial arts at all.
Otherwise every person that can fight weather they train martial arts or not could consider themselves as martial artist.


Visitor comment: London Kung Fu Club commented to Kung Fu · September 23rd, 2005 @ 6:13 am

Shaolin Kung Fu is as vast and complex as the universe. An ancient Shaolin Master once said: “Study Shaolin Style in great depth, then absorb the special qualities of other styles. Set for your high ideals. Study for wisdom and train the body. Never fear evil. Always fight for Justice.”

Shaolin Kung Fu is as vast and complex as the universe. This site will barely scratch the surface of its depths. An ancient Shaolin Master once said: … (comment to: Kung Fu)

Sounds a bit more like form than fighting to me.

Originally Posted by nwt

If you were as wise as buddah then you wouldnt ever have to fight.
And do you mean if you dont know how to punch with the correct form and technique that youre going to end up bruised?
Thats not entirely true, your forgetting about spirit it goes a long way in a fight you could have a spirit the size of a peanut and i could have a spirit the size of the universe you might have more physical ability, dosent necessarily mean your going to beat me.

Originally Posted by nwt

First off a person man, woman or child never HAS to fight it is allways an option, you fight or you dont fight those are the choices no matter what the instance may be. And i never said spirit was a replacement for knowledge, skills learnt, and training, i was stating that if 2 same skilled fighters had fought and 1 had more spirit than the other he would probably win and i didnt even say he would win i just think its more of a possibility.

so this would be me: technique/stamina/form/spirit. and this would be you: technique/stamina/form/physical ability

What does physical ability mean anyway? (like you can do the splits further than me?)
but hey you guys are entitled to your own opinions.

nwt,

These are all very interesting points and you seem very sure of your opinions and I respect that.

But I nearly completely disagree with just about every point you're trying to make. Let me give you some examples of where I disagree:

i just think that the spiritual side of martial arts, form and technique is more important than teaching someone to fight.

The spiritual side of WHICH martial art? Martial Arts from China, or Japan? Maybe we're talking about Thailand? Wait...Korea maybe? You are making assumptions that the Martial Arts you train are the same as the ones everyone else is training and that the cultural influences in these Martial Arts (and yes, these are 100% CULTURAL influences) are all identical. They are not. So while you may feel that the cultural influence in your particular style of training is beneficial for you, I don't think it's fair to assume we are all training this way nor that we want to train this way.

If you were as wise as buddah then you wouldnt ever have to fight.

I don't even know where to start with this it's so completely untrue. Wisdom and knowledge may save you where you live, but that is NOT true for everyone everywhere. This is unbelievably naive thinking and if you're actually advertising this mindset at a Martial Arts school it's almost dangerous. Yes, people expect to learn to protect themselves from Martial Arts schools. Telling them to study philosophy is not going to help them when someone gets in their face for accidentally cutting them off in traffice one day.

First off a person man, woman or child never HAS to fight it is allways an option, you fight or you dont fight those are the choices no matter what the instance may be.

Again, 100% not true. This is in no way true and if you don't think that's true I got plenty of people I can introduce you to who have been attacked. You are WAY off basis making assumptions like that based on your very narrow vision of the world.

so this would be me: technique/stamina/form/spirit. and this would be you: technique/stamina/form/physical ability

This would be me: technique/stamina/physical ability

My training style has no forms at all. Once again, you have a very narrow view of martial arts training and don't seem to know much about what others are doing and you seem to somehow think this somehow sets you apart and makes you better. I challenge that notion whole heartedly.

I do not look to my martial arts instructors for spiritual enlightenment or guidance. I am not interested in that from them, especially not from someone with Taoist or Buddhist philosophies since I do not believe in those philosophies. They mean very little to me. Since this is the case, I AM looking to make my jiujitsu better however and for that they do a great job.

[nwt]

Ive been attacked before at knife point i gave the person what they wanted and they left, sure i might have been able to disarm him but i chose not to, to avoid having to fight where someone might get seriously hurt or even die. Ive allways thought that martial arts was for defending youself and for spiritual enlightenment to become a better person within oneself no matter what country your style comes from.

If you feel better about yourself when you do the style you do how is that not a sort of enlightenment? Where did i state telling people to study philosophy? I also never said i was better than anyone else if i gave you that impression im sorry. I have the highest respect for people that study in the martial ways no matter what culture it is.

Spiritual enlightenment is a state of mind, weather you have forms or not. So you dont have to believe in them im not saying you have to either. And again you are going to have to be more specific on what "physical ability" is. You could class Stamina/technique as a physical ability or you could class it as you being able to do something that i cant (ie Being able to do a backflip) i also think its wrong to say you dont look to your instructors for guidance they are the ones that are teaching you everything that you know, it would be foolish to not let them help guide you.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by nwt

Ive been attacked before at knife point i gave the person what they wanted and they left, sure i might have been able to disarm him but i chose not to, to avoid having to fight where someone might get seriously hurt or even die. Ive allways thought that martial arts was for defending youself and for spiritual enlightenment to become a better person within oneself no matter what country your style comes from.

If you feel better about yourself when you do the style you do how is that not a sort of enlightenment? Where did i state telling people to study philosophy? I also never said i was better than anyone else if i gave you that impression im sorry. I have the highest respect for people that study in the martial ways no matter what culture it is.

Spiritual enlightenment is a state of mind, weather you have forms or not. So you dont have to believe in them im not saying you have to either. And again you are going to have to be more specific on what "physical ability" is. You could class Stamina/technique as a physical ability or you could class it as you being able to do something that i cant (ie Being able to do a backflip) i also think its wrong to say you dont look to your instructors for guidance they are the ones that are teaching you everything that you know, it would be foolish to not let them help guide you.

See, again you are wrong and your posts come across as extremely arrogant, self serving and self centered. Whether you realize this or not, your attitude is probably exactly the OPPOSITE of what you think it is and wish it to be.

Someone approaching you with a knife and asking for your money is not being attacked. That's being mugged. And when people in my classes ask me what to do in that situation, I tell them "Give the guy your money". This is COMPLETELY different than someone attacking you and trying to hurt you. Sometimes for no damn good reason at all. So just because YOU personally have never been through that, don't make the assumption that no one else has. That's a very self centered and narrow vision of the world around you and shows a complete lack of empathy on your part. Not exactly what I would call spiritually enlightened.

Saying that you believe the purpose of martial arts is for spiritual enlightement is great if that is what YOU want to get out of it. I would highly question in your case whether it's actually working or if it's just making you somewhat arrogant but that's a different conversation. If you personally believe that to be true, wonderful...may you find peace through martial training (ying/yang, I know..I get it). That does not mean that others are training for that purpose and to talk down to people who aren't training for the same reasons you are is once again a bit arrogant and self centered. Which I would point again is exactly the opposite of my personal definition of spiritually enlightened.

I do not look to my instructors for spiritual guidance. You are probably not at all familiar with the art in which I train, but our concentration is on submission grappling with lot's of sparring. We warm up, we learn some techniques, we spar, we go home. Now whether or not my instructors happen to set a good example as people or not has very little to do with why I train, I did not go seeking training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to look for a father figure, a priest, or a counselor. If I want these things in my life, I have places in my life where I can go to seek these people. On the mats is not that place for me, personally. That is my time, and any spiritual enlightenment I get out of it comes from the blood, sweat and tears I put into my training. Not from some hokey speech about respect and honor from someone who may or may not be setting a real example outside of the mats of what he says he stands for.

So forgive me if I sound a bit harsh but this kind of nonsense about spiritual enlightenment is the true path of the martial artist is getting old and is full of nonsense. Spiritual enlightenment should be the path for EVERYONE, we do not hold any kind of special place in the world that makes us different or better just because we put some pajamas on and beat each other up at night. Seek enlightenment in everything you do and look for people in your life that set that example for you, no matter where they are or what your relationship with them may be.