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i totally agree with wc and joe on this matter, forms teach you the moves however they do not teach you how to fight which is what martial arts are mainly about. Its like saying that practicing on a driving simulator lets you drive a car in real life.
yes forms may teach you certain things but in the essence of what a martial art is, it is fighting. i have never done any forms or katas simply because i dont see how practicing something to the ai can prepare you for a real oppenent who can do anything, yes they may help balance however i still think the raw aspect of fighing prepares you much more
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
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I think Joe has an awsome point about not looking for martial arts instructors for spiritual or morality guidance. They are men and women like everyone else and thier training is NOT anything that prepares them to take on that role. I see too many students who blindly follow thier instructors as if they are the Buhda come back to life, even quoting things they say as if it is truth itself. It becomes a cult and that never ends well. Now there are men and women in the martial arts who are worthy of great respect for things other than thier martial arts. However, there are also men and women that have nothing to do with martial arts that are also worthy of great respect.
I agree with Joe (Again as usual! lol). If you believe you can avoid every possible fight, then why learn a MA. For the spiritual part only? Doesn't that kind of make it like your studying a religion now. But I guess you do have a choice to fight or not... You can either let the guy kill you or you can fight...
__________________ I'm still alive so I must have made some good decisions
Can I just say...
you NEVER have a choice in whether or not to fight. Just because the person who mugged you didn't kill is no because you 'chose not to fight', it means they chose not to stab you. You were very, very lucky, and I know of maaany instances where it has gone the other way.
I have been attacked, badly, several times and there was no instance where I had a choice of saying 'no, I will not fight'. Human instinct made me fight back, and that's a fantastic thing. The fact that we have no choice, and that our bodies and instinct tell us what to do in that instance, has saved many more people than it has harmed. However, although I had the strongest of reasons to fight back, and the strongest of wills and spirit, I did not win. There was no physical way I could have won, as my attacker was stronger, bigger, and more used to fighting in that way. My spirit was stronger - if he didn't win nothing would happen to him, but if i lost I didn't know whether I would be killed or not. I had everything to lose, and I did lose, but I survived, and that is not due to anything other than the will of my 'opponent'. And you can't chose your opponent, or guide their mind. You can fight them and train yourself to do so, and to be ready, and to know how to get through such an occurance, but you can't train yourself NOT to fight.
Spirit, I am afraid, does not replace stamina and strength.
I haven't read all of this thread, and I will do soon - I just came on quickly in order to argue this point as it's still a fairly sore one. I apologise if I sound cross but I do think it's slightly narrow minded to assume that anyone has a choice to fight or not to fight. I had no choice, and thousands of people who have been attack/will be attacked don't either.
...I have been attacked, badly, several times and there was no instance where I had a choice of saying 'no, I will not fight'. Human instinct made me fight back, and that's a fantastic thing. The fact that we have no choice, and that our bodies and instinct tell us what to do in that instance, has saved many more people than it has harmed....
I have to disagree slightly with this. Only slightly because for you its true, instinct made you fight, but I have a friend who got into a fight (when I say got into a fight, I mean the other person started to wail on her) and she told me she got on the ground covered your head with her hands/arms and let the person beat the crap out of her because she was so afraid and realized she had no chance of winning the fight. So not everyone has an instinct to fight back. When she was attacked she let the person hurt her.
However, I still view this as a person who got into a fight without it being their choice, even though they didn't throw a punch. They were still in a fight unwillingly.
__________________ I'm still alive so I must have made some good decisions
Sorry for wasting your peoples time in sharing my point of view its what I believe, im sorry if i have come across like a preacher and in no way at all was i meaning to be arrogant/self serving/self centered i was allways taught "eye for an eye only blinds the world." "evil begets evil." I would much rather take a beating than give one no matter what the case is. But hey thats just me, from now on ill keep my opinions to myself.
__________________
Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them.
Sorry for wasting your peoples time in sharing my point of view its what I believe, im sorry if i have come across like a preacher and in no way at all was i meaning to be arrogant/self serving/self centered i was allways taught "eye for an eye only blinds the world." "evil begets evil." I would much rather take a beating than give one no matter what the case is. But hey thats just me, from now on ill keep my opinions to myself.
I have to ask... Why do you learn martial arts if you would never fight for any reason? Also, are you saying you wouldn't fight someone if it meant saving another person's life?
__________________ I'm still alive so I must have made some good decisions
Sorry for wasting your peoples time in sharing my point of view its what I believe, im sorry if i have come across like a preacher and in no way at all was i meaning to be arrogant/self serving/self centered i was allways taught "eye for an eye only blinds the world." "evil begets evil." I would much rather take a beating than give one no matter what the case is. But hey thats just me, from now on ill keep my opinions to myself.
Dont take it personally mate. On this place so many different ideas and people clash - sometimes you just have to let it go. Most improtantly we are all here to learn.
Good point MaliMisho actually, I suppose people have different instincts in that situation
But agreed, I don't feel that people have a choice whether to fight, again she was in the fight without it being her choice.
Seriously nwt, it's a conflict of opinions not a personal conflict, it happens often on here and in life ^_^ It's all cool.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 4,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwt
Sorry for wasting your peoples time in sharing my point of view its what I believe, im sorry if i have come across like a preacher and in no way at all was i meaning to be arrogant/self serving/self centered i was allways taught "eye for an eye only blinds the world." "evil begets evil." I would much rather take a beating than give one no matter what the case is. But hey thats just me, from now on ill keep my opinions to myself.
Your opinion is welcome, but so are everyone else's and rarely will everyone's opinion be the same. That is kind of the point in a forum like this. You learn from other people's view on things. If someone thinks your post sound preachy or arrogant then it is something to keep in mind, but it shouldn't effect whether you are willing to give your opinion or not. After all, that is just his opinion and we all know what opinions are like
As far as fighting, I will never attack another person. I think the peacefull aproach is best. However, I will not let someone beat myself or someone I care about. I believe defending myself is just giving back to my attacker the violence he has offered me. I also believe that letting a person attack me or someone I care for and not doing something about it reinforces the behaviour in the attacker. It tells him its ok and he can get away with it. Also, a man committing violence on another person is not peace regardless if the victim defends themselves or not. Now vengeance...that is another story entirely.
See, again you are wrong and your posts come across as extremely arrogant, self serving and self centered. Whether you realize this or not, your attitude is probably exactly the OPPOSITE of what you think it is and wish it to be.
Someone approaching you with a knife and asking for your money is not being attacked. That's being mugged. And when people in my classes ask me what to do in that situation, I tell them "Give the guy your money". This is COMPLETELY different than someone attacking you and trying to hurt you. Sometimes for no damn good reason at all. So just because YOU personally have never been through that, don't make the assumption that no one else has. That's a very self centered and narrow vision of the world around you and shows a complete lack of empathy on your part. Not exactly what I would call spiritually enlightened.
Saying that you believe the purpose of martial arts is for spiritual enlightement is great if that is what YOU want to get out of it. I would highly question in your case whether it's actually working or if it's just making you somewhat arrogant but that's a different conversation. If you personally believe that to be true, wonderful...may you find peace through martial training (ying/yang, I know..I get it). That does not mean that others are training for that purpose and to talk down to people who aren't training for the same reasons you are is once again a bit arrogant and self centered. Which I would point again is exactly the opposite of my personal definition of spiritually enlightened.
I do not look to my instructors for spiritual guidance. You are probably not at all familiar with the art in which I train, but our concentration is on submission grappling with lot's of sparring. We warm up, we learn some techniques, we spar, we go home. Now whether or not my instructors happen to set a good example as people or not has very little to do with why I train, I did not go seeking training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to look for a father figure, a priest, or a counselor. If I want these things in my life, I have places in my life where I can go to seek these people. On the mats is not that place for me, personally. That is my time, and any spiritual enlightenment I get out of it comes from the blood, sweat and tears I put into my training. Not from some hokey speech about respect and honor from someone who may or may not be setting a real example outside of the mats of what he says he stands for.
So forgive me if I sound a bit harsh but this kind of nonsense about spiritual enlightenment is the true path of the martial artist is getting old and is full of nonsense. Spiritual enlightenment should be the path for EVERYONE, we do not hold any kind of special place in the world that makes us different or better just because we put some pajamas on and beat each other up at night. Seek enlightenment in everything you do and look for people in your life that set that example for you, no matter where they are or what your relationship with them may be.
Sorry for wasting your peoples time in sharing my point of view its what I believe, im sorry if i have come across like a preacher and in no way at all was i meaning to be arrogant/self serving/self centered i was allways taught "eye for an eye only blinds the world." "evil begets evil." I would much rather take a beating than give one no matter what the case is. But hey thats just me, from now on ill keep my opinions to myself.
i understand what you mean about not going round starting fights with people and i think eveyone on this forum will agree with you, you can always try to avoid a fight however if someone does push you to fightm insisting you will not will only put you in a weaker position as the attackers ego will grow and it will just create a fearless monster.
if someone were to attack me or anyone of my friends i believe faltering to attack back will only give the attacker better options
i understand what you mean about not going round starting fights with people and i think eveyone on this forum will agree with you, you can always try to avoid a fight however if someone does push you to fightm insisting you will not will only put you in a weaker position as the attackers ego will grow and it will just create a fearless monster.
if someone were to attack me or anyone of my friends i believe faltering to attack back will only give the attacker better options
Most self-defense instructors (reality based anyway) will agree with you. You cannot bargain/negotiate with a person from a position of weakness and if your bargaining for your life, health or property its even more so...
As for a martial arts instructor teaching spirituality or morality and philosophy, sorry to tell you guys this but thats the purpose of Budo arts like Karate-do, judo, aikido and kendo. They are intended to teach you the Do (refering to the Tao or Way). The founder of Judo even has said such himself, now whether you agree with that idea or not, it doesn't matter. Those systems were intended to teach aspects of Warrior Culture like self-discipline, self-control, self-motivation and do by conditioning the body to condition the mind and teaching martial skills. Thats simply the way it is...
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Most self-defense instructors (reality based anyway) will agree with you. You cannot bargain/negotiate with a person from a position of weakness and if your bargaining for your life, health or property its even more so...
As for a martial arts instructor teaching spirituality or morality and philosophy, sorry to tell you guys this but thats the purpose of Budo arts like Karate-do, judo, aikido and kendo. They are intended to teach you the Do (refering to the Tao or Way). The founder of Judo even has said such himself, now whether you agree with that idea or not, it doesn't matter. Those systems were intended to teach aspects of Warrior Culture like self-discipline, self-control, self-motivation and do by conditioning the body to condition the mind and teaching martial skills. Thats simply the way it is...
Yer i totally understand that aspect however when the time arises you must use what you had.
Ueshiba said he taught aikido to promote peace throughout the world however in some ways the only way to achieve peace is to stop the attacker from attacking anymore
Not Dissing Karate.... Honest!
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