Korean Martial History

[FatalFistOfFury]

His CopyPaste-Fu is strong,

but, a very good article regardless.

[47MartialMan]

We all have copy and paste.

[Sensei Tom OBrien]

Now that I am back training TKD I really appreciate this thread. I'm having a lot of fun. Last nite we did jump spinning 360's & all kinds of crazy/fun kicks. For this old man its just lucky I can still make an attempt. I want to thank all you guys who had input. It is very time appropriate for me right now.

Thanks again,
Tom

[Theforgotten]

I love the work of Androgue, the man has done sound research and he backs up everything with hard evidence. I am not sure that I buy into the whole Hwarang thing. Until I see hard evidence from a reputable third party source to back this up, it is just more nationalist myth to me.

[Dean]

I have studied articles similar to the comments about Hwa Rang Do. I'll see if i can find more informaion.
Hwa Rang Do / Tae Soo Do World Headquarters

[Theforgotten]

Thanks for the link, but this is why I prefer independent third party sources. It is a Hwarangdo website, therefore, the creators have a major stake in it and are going to use it to back their own claims. It is already slanted to a particular agenda, so the info is going to be presented to back up that particular agenda. Using sources that are outside of the organization and have nothing to gain other than increased knowledge on the subject will ensure more objectivity and a more accurate and less biased presentation of the facts. Of course, these sources must be reliable and reputable. I personally go for historians and people who are Dr.'s and/or PH.D's in their profession, as they have the credentials, the experience, and the qualifications required to undertake a serious, objective study of history. I learned this while researching Shotokan and other martial arts. There are a lot of legends and lies in the martial arts that get passed around as fact due to national and/or ethnic pride. The best way to find the truth is to go to sources that are as objective as possible and have no personal stake in the outcome.

[TKD&JKD]

Cool thread someone fished out of the past. As far as the Hwarang Warriors and some of the KMA history it seems pretty close to most of what I have found. I agree that some history is hard to trace because of the japanese occupation. Because of this occupation there was a lot of Japanese influence on TKD, and Hapkido. It seems many Korean martial artists do not like to admit Japanese influnces on TKD because of their rivalry.

[Theforgotten]

Thanks ! Yeah, I fell for a lot of stories when I started martial arts because I just blindly accepted what my instructors said. However, I have learned to question everything because there are many national/cultural motives at work and certain things are presented to merely serve an agenda. One example is the whole empty hand thing in Karate. I was told that this was always so, however, I learned through careful research that originally karate was China Hand, but that the character was changed due to nationalist reasons and ethnic pride. I guess that you can say that it is similar to how our Korean brothers and sisters go out of their way to deny the Japanese links to their modern martial arts.

As for Hwarang, nothing of any substance has been found or verified by any reputable sources. I personally find it fishy when the only historians and professionals who verify this legend are the ones from the parent country. Don't get me wrong - there were Hwarang, they were good looking youths who were chosen for the courts, but nothing has been found to verify any warriorship connection. I am not going to say that it wasn't the case. My main stance is that, since nothing of substance has been found to back the story, then I can't accept it as fact or support it any way becuase that would be intellectually dishonest.

I think that it is very hilarious that every KMA tries to trace its roots back to a monk in the mountain. It has gotten so bad that they are actually copyrighting names and entire arts now. I think that it is very sad and that it shows that perhaps other motives are at play other than just teaching and spreading the art for the love of the art.

I think that the history is hard to trace for many reasons, the occupation being only one of them. Martial arts in general fell into severe decline in Korea prior to the Japanese occupation and were even systematically made extinct by a society and a regime that regarded their practice as barbaric. The Japanese merely finished what the Koreans themselves started many years prior to the occupation. If Muye Dobo Tong Ji survived, then I doubt that the Japanese were able to truly purge Korea of all martial records. Besides, I don't want to give Japan that much credit .

Japanese influence on TKD? I think that is a major understatement seeing as how TKD basically came directly from Japanese Karate itself and shares the same exact technical core. Hapkido has roots in Daito-Ryu, as well. I don't think that it is just influence, but rather the modern Korean martial arts are Korean versions of Japanese martial arts which the Koreans were limited to practicing during the occupation.

I think that many Koreans don't like to admit the Japanese connection because the memory of the occupation is still fresh and the Japanese have never truly made amends for it.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

what i find odd is that KMA arts that are indigneous to Korea with no Japanese influence dont get much attention like Subak, Taekkyon, Shippalgi,Ssirieum, and the Moo Sul arts etc.

currently it seems like the Korea-Japan relations are getting better from what my local friends explain. theres been a spike of interest in Asia relations between countries for school courses so the result seems optimistic in general. but some rough edges to work out concerning martial arts.

[Theforgotten]

I know, right!? You'd think that the indigenous arts would be front and center instead of the Korean knockoffs of Japanese arts. Shippalgi and Ssireum are two amazing indigenous arts but most people have never heard of them, and fewer still have actually seen them in action. Shippalgi, Ssireum, or Subak should be the national art of Korea, in my opinion. I don't say Taekkyon because that was not a martial art (well, not the old original version, anyways), it was a folk game that was often used for gambling. It should be the national sport, though. I hope and pray that Japan and Korea bury the hatchet and become close allies someday. They are practically brothers and sisters and they have so much more to gain from being together than apart. I guess that I do my part to unite them in my own little way - I practice a Japanese art and a Korean art, and I honor them both at the same time .

[complete]

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen anytime soon. There are long history of bad blood and it's not easily forgotten and forgiven especially when the offending party still denies a lot of the things that happened.

[TKD&JKD]

While on the topic of Koream MA, Sip Pal Gi is Korean kung fu. Because Korea is a peninsula connected to mainland China, it was a natural place for Shaolin monks to escape persecution. These monks became friendly with the Koreans and they exchanged martial ideals. A friend of mine took this style. Sometimes we would show eachother techniques. His style had a lot of hand work resembling chain punching, and trapping. It was very different than the mostly linear hand techniques of TKD or TSD.

[Theforgotten]

Complete, I know what you mean, and it is very unfortunate. I think that it will be many generations in the future before the two get cuddly with each other, if they ever even get cuddly with each other. I wish that Japan would stop denying its atrocities from world war 2 and stop writing bogus history books, too. I also wish that they would stop visiting the Yasakuni (sp?) shrine and honoring war criminals. If these things continue, then Korea (and the rest of Asia) has no choice but to continue to view Japan as an evil country. I will still hold out hope that the two will reconcile someday.

TKD&JKD, you are right. It is Korean kung fu. I was told that Koreans learned Kung Fu from their Chinese brothers and sisters and put their own unique spin on it. I also believe that the hand-to-hand section in the MDT is Long Fist Chaun Fa. So, I guess that Shippalgi is not an indigenous style, per se. However, seeing as how a large amount of Korean culture has traditionally been from China due to close proximity and mostly friendly relations between the two, it can be said that Shippalgi is more Korean than the Japanese imports.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Theforgotten

I know, right!? You'd think that the indigenous arts would be front and center instead of the Korean knockoffs of Japanese arts. Shippalgi and Ssireum are two amazing indigenous arts but most people have never heard of them, and fewer still have actually seen them in action. Shippalgi, Ssireum, or Subak should be the national art of Korea, in my opinion. I don't say Taekkyon because that was not a martial art (well, not the old original version, anyways), it was a folk game that was often used for gambling. It should be the national sport, though. I hope and pray that Japan and Korea bury the hatchet and become close allies someday. They are practically brothers and sisters and they have so much more to gain from being together than apart. I guess that I do my part to unite them in my own little way - I practice a Japanese art and a Korean art, and I honor them both at the same time .

i see what u mean. taekkyon is a folk game/ sport thats listed as a national treasure to the country. the self defense side of it is pretty nasty.

practicing both KMA an JMA is interesting. though sometimes for me it gets annoying when i get too stuck doing certain techniques

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by TKD&JKD

While on the topic of Koream MA, Sip Pal Gi is Korean kung fu. Because Korea is a peninsula connected to mainland China, it was a natural place for Shaolin monks to escape persecution. These monks became friendly with the Koreans and they exchanged martial ideals. A friend of mine took this style. Sometimes we would show eachother techniques. His style had a lot of hand work resembling chain punching, and trapping. It was very different than the mostly linear hand techniques of TKD or TSD.

sounds like you had a good training experience with the Sippalgi buddy.