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Korean Martial ArtsDiscuss Korean style martial arts here - Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Jidokwan, Kuk Sool Won, Kumdo, Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Yudo
Taekkyun was started as a folk game, not a martial art. That is the difference between Taekkyun and Muay Thai. Taekkyun, much like Pyon Ssaum, was a folk game and was created as such from the start. There was no transition from Martial Art to Martial Sport in the same vein as Muay Thai. No reliable source has EVER referred to it as being anything else.
The assertion of Taekkyun lineages is also a falsehood, too. Taekkyun was pretty much dead on the peninsula, with very few, if any practitioners aside from Song Duk Ki, Im Ho, Seong-Hwan, Lee Yong Bok, and Lee Won Kuk. In an interview involving Song Duk Ki himself:
"The first recent demonstration in public occured during a national police martial arts competition on March 26, 1958, the birthday of former President Syngman Rhee. Rhee greatly enjoyed the special demonstration organized by Im Ho and Kim Seong-hwan but felt sorry that tae kyon was dying out in his homeland (Song, 1983:21). A presidential bodyguard who knew Song Duk-ki personally later told him how the president desperately wanted the art to continue for future generations. Song began looking for a more qualified taekyon master, to fulfil Rhee's request, but he could find none. As far as Song knew, only he Kim, and the elderly Im Ho continued to practice tae kyon."(Young)
Another source:
"Further testimony to the completeness of t'aekkyon 's disappearance from Korean folk customs is given by Song Tok-ki the Choson's "last t'aekkyon player" who was invited in 1958 to give a demonstration of t'aekkyon on the occasion of then
President Syngman Rhee's birthday. In spite of searching in "100 directions" he was unable to locate even one person versed in t'aekkyon with whom he could demonstrate. This in spite of hundreds of t'aegwondo schools throughout the country. Song Tok-ki goes on to say that t'aekkyon was never thought of as other than a game and existed almost exclusively in Seoul where it was played regularly in a few locations." (Capener)
Not only that, but given the time and the political/nationalist climate of the country, why didn't anyone from any of these so-called different lineages come forward and present their style/lineage/knowledge to the government and society at large when doing so would've helped preserve it as well as help in the process of recovering the Korean National Identity? I am afraid it just doesn't wash, especially in the face of overwhelming, verified historical evidence to the contrary of your points. My point in asking the question was for you to question the people who told you of the whole Taekkyun thing, especially when the best and most accurate sources stand in stark opposition and have the facts to back it up. I'm sorry, but any so-called lineages are modern creations and are part of the New Taekkyun that I keep trying to tell you about that has very little to do with the true, original product which is something different.
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theforgotten
Taekkyun was started as a folk game, not a martial art. That is the difference between Taekkyun and Muay Thai. Taekkyun, much like Pyon Ssaum, was a folk game and was created as such from the start. There was no transition from Martial Art to Martial Sport in the same vein as Muay Thai. No reliable source has EVER referred to it as being anything else.
The assertion of Taekkyun lineages is also a falsehood, too. Taekkyun was pretty much dead on the peninsula, with very few, if any practitioners aside from Song Duk Ki, Im Ho, Seong-Hwan, Lee Yong Bok, and Lee Won Kuk. In an interview involving Song Duk Ki himself:
"The first recent demonstration in public occured during a national police martial arts competition on March 26, 1958, the birthday of former President Syngman Rhee. Rhee greatly enjoyed the special demonstration organized by Im Ho and Kim Seong-hwan but felt sorry that tae kyon was dying out in his homeland (Song, 1983:21). A presidential bodyguard who knew Song Duk-ki personally later told him how the president desperately wanted the art to continue for future generations. Song began looking for a more qualified taekyon master, to fulfil Rhee's request, but he could find none. As far as Song knew, only he Kim, and the elderly Im Ho continued to practice tae kyon."(Young)
Another source:
"Further testimony to the completeness of t'aekkyon 's disappearance from Korean folk customs is given by Song Tok-ki the Choson's "last t'aekkyon player" who was invited in 1958 to give a demonstration of t'aekkyon on the occasion of then
President Syngman Rhee's birthday. In spite of searching in "100 directions" he was unable to locate even one person versed in t'aekkyon with whom he could demonstrate. This in spite of hundreds of t'aegwondo schools throughout the country. Song Tok-ki goes on to say that t'aekkyon was never thought of as other than a game and existed almost exclusively in Seoul where it was played regularly in a few locations." (Capener)
Not only that, but given the time and the political/nationalist climate of the country, why didn't anyone from any of these so-called different lineages come forward and present their style/lineage/knowledge to the government and society at large when doing so would've helped preserve it as well as help in the process of recovering the Korean National Identity? I am afraid it just doesn't wash, especially in the face of overwhelming, verified historical evidence to the contrary of your points. My point in asking the question was for you to question the people who told you of the whole Taekkyun thing, especially when the best and most accurate sources stand in stark opposition and have the facts to back it up. I'm sorry, but any so-called lineages are modern creations and are part of the New Taekkyun that I keep trying to tell you about that has very little to do with the true, original product which is something different.
the new taekkyon im talking about came from one of Song's students. the taekkyon practicioners ive met, some of who may crosstrain in tkd come from taekkyon federation which was started up by Song's student.
the couple Taekkyon matches i watched at cultural festivals were from one of the affiliations decended from Song by way of his students.
as far as Dong Yi taekkyon goes. if im not mistaken, they claim lineage from North Korea and one of my agendas was to contact them for further research on taekkyon. cause theres alot more to learn from people themselves instead of going off of books that come from
different sources with differing views.
these guys have been featured on documentaries for local Korean TV.
my earlier remarks on lineage was in regards to people who were trained by a teacher who in turn was trained by a teacher of Song's students....thats a lineage
some people say its just a game. some say its a traditional martial art/ folk game. if the new taekkyon follows the same rules that Song learned an passed on i dont see how
that would have little or nothing to do with the old taekkyon.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
as far as Dong Yi taekkyon goes. if im not mistaken, they claim lineage from North Korea and one of my agendas was to contact them for further research on taekkyon. cause theres alot more to learn from people themselves instead of going off of books that come from different sources with differing views.
Not just going off of books from different sources with differing views, going off of painstakingly-researched information and verified facts by the foremost authorities on the subject. that actually means something. I would rather go off of the findings of those who are professional historians without an agenda, than to go by the word of those who clearly have a vested interest in what story gets put out, know what I mean? Dong Yi claim lineage from North Korea, can this lineage be proven? If so, where is the proof? I am skeptical of many such claims because many of these same exact claims have been made thoughout Korean martial arts, only to be easily debunked by careful, unbiased research into the subject. I would love to see a North Korean link, especially after Song Duk Ki himself specifically said that it was concentrated around Seoul.
Quote:
these guys have been featured on documentaries for local Korean TV.
This means nothing, just because someone appears on television does not make what they are claiming true. Many guys have appeared on documentaries talking about TKD and how it is 2000 years old, as well. See my point?
Quote:
some people say its just a game. some say its a traditional martial art/ folk game.
No, not just some people - Song Duk Ki himself said this (along with the most reliable sources on the subject, coupled with the historical texts that made mention of it)! Look at the quote above, "Song Tok-ki goes on to say that t'aekkyon was never thought of as other than a game and existed almost exclusively in Seoul where it was played regularly in a few locations." who would know better than the very man who was branded a national treasure? Now, I will be willing to concede that perhaps MODERN Taekkyun (which again is different from the original version) may have been turned into an martial art.
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
Original Taekkyun (19th century folk sport/game) vs. Modern Taekkyun (modern reinterpretation of Taekkyun that utilizes high kicking techs and hand techs from TKD/TSD)
- Modern Taekkyun incorporates High kicking techniques along with many hand techniques from TKD/TSD.
- According to Lee young Bok,"Tae kyon has traditionally emphasized stepping and stamping techniques directed at the opponent's lower legs and feet."
- According to Stuart Cullin, another deeply knowledgeable source on subject,"a game in which the object is to kick the opponent's leg out from under him or catch the opponent's kick and throw him to the ground."
- A possible North Korean link is the claim by Ch'oe Hong-hui that he learned Taekkyun from Han Il-dong in Hamgyong-do province, North Korea. This claim, however, is refuted by the testimony of Song Duk Ki, who said That Taekkyun was a Seoul thing.
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theforgotten
Not just going off of books from different sources with differing views, going off of painstakingly-researched information and verified facts by the foremost authorities on the subject. that actually means something. I would rather go off of the findings of those who are professional historians without an agenda, than to go by the word of those who clearly have a vested interest in what story gets put out, know what I mean? Dong Yi claim lineage from North Korea, can this lineage be proven? If so, where is the proof? I am skeptical of many such claims because many of these same exact claims have been made thoughout Korean martial arts, only to be easily debunked by careful, unbiased research into the subject. I would love to see a North Korean link, especially after Song Duk Ki himself specifically said that it was concentrated around Seoul.
This means nothing, just because someone appears on television does not make what they are claiming true. Many guys have appeared on documentaries talking about TKD and how it is 2000 years old, as well. See my point?
No, not just some people - Song Duk Ki himself said this (along with the most reliable sources on the subject, coupled with the historical texts that made mention of it)! Look at the quote above, "Song Tok-ki goes on to say that t'aekkyon was never thought of as other than a game and existed almost exclusively in Seoul where it was played regularly in a few locations." who would know better than the very man who was branded a national treasure? Now, I will be willing to concede that perhaps MODERN Taekkyun (which again is different from the original version) may have been turned into an martial art.
i know what you mean. with the Dong Yi people i havent met any in person only email. one of my projects is to try an meet them as part of research and see thier side of the story then compare it with other sources before jumping to conclusions.
im familiar with Song Duk Gi's words but with Modern taekkyun i dont agree with it being different from the original due to the rules,terms,preparation, and customs involved with the games being retained.
i would say that it evolved where new techniques were added as far as the game part which is sparring either way u look at it full contact with no protective gear.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
i know what you mean. with the Dong Yi people i havent met any in person only email. one of my projects is to try an meet them as part of research and see thier side of the story then compare it with other sources before jumping to conclusions.
im familiar with Song Duk Gi's words but with Modern taekkyun i dont agree with it being different from the original due to the rules,terms,preparation, and customs involved with the games being retained.
i would say that it evolved where new techniques were added as far as the game part which is sparring either way u look at it full contact with no protective gear.
Yes, please understand that I am in no way trying to put my own personal take in it. I am actually personally interested in finding a North Korean link, too (which is why I am hoping that you find someting of substance to present ). I would love to read Dong Yi's information and compare it to Song Duk Ki's memoires, the Chaemulbo, and the Haedong Chukchi along with the other facts that have been uncovered.
Not trying to jump to conclusions, and didn't mean to come off a know-it-all. The best information that we have on the subject, combined with the reputation of korean martial artists and Korean martial arts orgs to lie about connections and the such, makes me very cautious, and I think that claims that differ or go in direct conflict with the aforementioned must meet the burden of proof. It's just that TKD tried to make the same exact claim about having had Taekkyun in it, or even added to it, then the Korea Taekkyun Research Institute came out directly and denied it. TKD still tries to make these links, but it is laughable now. So you must understand my own vehement skepticism when it comes to the subject of Taekkyun having been added to anything. Such a claim must meet the burden of proof, and cannot just be heresay, as many martial artists in Korea are known to stretch the truth wholesale in the name of national pride.
Modern Taekkyun will retain the customs and such, if only to pay homage to the older version. The main differences that I am talking about are the technical differences, and the different approach of both versions - the old version was a game (not in my opinion, but according to Song Duk Ki and other EXPERTS on the subject), and the new version is a martial art, or at least leans more in that direction. I would say that the new version is much nastier than the old one due to the added techs and the change in approach (game vs. martial art).
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theforgotten
Yes, please understand that I am in no way trying to put my own personal take in it. I am actually personally interested in finding a North Korean link, too (which is why I am hoping that you find someting of substance to present ). I would love to read Dong Yi's information and compare it to Song Duk Ki's memoires, the Chaemulbo, and the Haedong Chukchi along with the other facts that have been uncovered.
Not trying to jump to conclusions, and didn't mean to come off a know-it-all. The best information that we have on the subject, combined with the reputation of korean martial artists and Korean martial arts orgs to lie about connections and the such, makes me very cautious, and I think that claims that differ or go in direct conflict with the aforementioned must meet the burden of proof. It's just that TKD tried to make the same exact claim about having had Taekkyun in it, or even added to it, then the Korea Taekkyun Research Institute came out directly and denied it. TKD still tries to make these links, but it is laughable now. So you must understand my own vehement skepticism when it comes to the subject of Taekkyun having been added to anything. Such a claim must meet the burden of proof, and cannot just be heresay, as many martial artists in Korea are known to stretch the truth wholesale in the name of national pride.
Modern Taekkyun will retain the customs and such, if only to pay homage to the older version. The main differences that I am talking about are the technical differences, and the different approach of both versions - the old version was a game (not in my opinion, but according to Song Duk Ki and other EXPERTS on the subject), and the new version is a martial art, or at least leans more in that direction. I would say that the new version is much nastier than the old one due to the added techs and the change in approach (game vs. martial art).
i hope i find something too. even though language barrier is a pain in the ass sometimes. looking over the rules of taekkyun
that Song laid out the new version retains the same rules as the old one but with added tech like you mentioned.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theforgotten
Cool, and thanks! It is always cool to get additional information, and I know what you mean about the language barrier, it is definitely a royal pain.
since im detached from my unit, i dont get to see my buddies much cause im on the tkd team. but after getting aquainted with the teamates. i found out that my senior coach and a senior member who are both from Seoul
practice taekkyon. they from the traditional taegyeon association. i had sent an email to the Dong Yi group but they never got back to me.
but when i was talking with my teamates they gave some lessons an further background info. this was cool cause theres not much of a language barrier
when i mentioned my issue with Dong Yi, they fell on the floor laughing. apparently, Dong Yi taekkyon is a BS school. i dont know where they learned from or how they made it up yet
i always noticed that they are different from the other taekkyon but i was like ok...well they claim N. Korea lineage so maybe thats why.
but they cant provide any lineage proof. but like what you was saying according to the research association, a lineage wouldnt really be needed cause they dont do thier techniques correctly
it looks pretty to someone who dont know any better but they are actually doing thier movements and techniques wrong.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
since im detached from my unit, i dont get to see my buddies much cause im on the tkd team. but after getting aquainted with the teamates. i found out that my senior coach and a senior member who are both from Seoul
practice taekkyon. they from the traditional taegyeon association. i had sent an email to the Dong Yi group but they never got back to me.
but when i was talking with my teamates they gave some lessons an further background info. this was cool cause theres not much of a language barrier
when i mentioned my issue with Dong Yi, they fell on the floor laughing. apparently, Dong Yi taekkyon is a BS school. i dont know where they learned from or how they made it up yet
i always noticed that they are different from the other taekkyon but i was like ok...well they claim N. Korea lineage so maybe thats why.
but they cant provide any lineage proof. but like what you was saying according to the research association, a lineage wouldnt really be needed cause they dont do thier techniques correctly
it looks pretty to someone who dont know any better but they are actually doing thier movements and techniques wrong.
I am sorry to hear. This is what makes me so angry within the Korean martial arts. Somebody like you, who is clearly a good person and who takes their training seriously, is openly lied to by an organization and a source that you trusted. It's not fair, and it really angers me to no end. I swore up and down that TKD was 2000 years old and that it was practiced by the Hwarang, I was crushed when I learned that it was all lies and myths and that TKD was merely 50 years old and that it was an offshoot of Shotokan Karate with elements of Shudokan and Chuan Fa added in. I wasn't disappointed because of the truth, I was disappointed becasue I trusted my teachers from Korea and they looked me right in the eyes and lied with a smile. Since then, I have taken it upon myself to do my own research and use the most objective and qualified sources that I can find. Think about how many people have been lied to and are still being lied to right now, moreso, think about the people who are doing the lying and not even caring about violating the trust of their students. This is why I challenge all claims made about Korean martial arts and demand legitimate proof to back up the claims. I'd rep you for taking the time to question them, but I am still on my old cycle. +1 to you, my friend.
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theforgotten
I am sorry to hear. This is what makes me so angry within the Korean martial arts. Somebody like you, who is clearly a good person and who takes their training seriously, is openly lied to by an organization and a source that you trusted. It's not fair, and it really angers me to no end. I swore up and down that TKD was 2000 years old and that it was practiced by the Hwarang, I was crushed when I learned that it was all lies and myths and that TKD was merely 50 years old and that it was an offshoot of Shotokan Karate with elements of Shudokan and Chuan Fa added in. I wasn't disappointed because of the truth, I was disappointed becasue I trusted my teachers from Korea and they looked me right in the eyes and lied with a smile. Since then, I have taken it upon myself to do my own research and use the most objective and qualified sources that I can find. Think about how many people have been lied to and are still being lied to right now, moreso, think about the people who are doing the lying and not even caring about violating the trust of their students. This is why I challenge all claims made about Korean martial arts and demand legitimate proof to back up the claims. I'd rep you for taking the time to question them, but I am still on my old cycle. +1 to you, my friend.
yeah im good. i was tryin to be objective at first. but they was dodgy. but im glad that i got to make a couple of new friends from a legit taekkyun school to train with an learn from. with these guys communication is good cause they speak english fluently. the other dudes i know, not so good so its kinda hard to communicate with when topics go in depth.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
I (as always) feel like putting my 2 cents in. Though no one system was ever passed down from ancient Korea to now. It is not wrong to say that modern Koreans are the descendants of ancient Koreans. People will always pass down to the next generation how to fight even if it is just father to son. Some techniques and philosiphy behind fighting survive and change generation to generation. So in that way KMA does have a connection to its three kingdoms past, but I'll be the first to say modern Korean Martial Arts owes more of its content to JMA then to ancient Korean ones.
That being said I'm not really sure about HwaRangDo which supposedly came from a monk before becoming HwaRangDo but I do not know the truth of that.
That being said I'm not really sure about HwaRangDo which supposedly came from a monk before becoming HwaRangDo but I do not know the truth of that.
Hwa Rang from Shilla dynasty is for real. Those are in the history books.
Whether the current Hwa Rang Do is direct decent of the old Hwa Rang warriors of 1800 years ago is still in question. Early on when I was taking HRD, we were told so. All the HRD books also mentioned it as such. After many disputes from others, the grandmaster of HRD was featured on Blackbelt magazine few years ago saying not totally contradictory but somewhat softer stance on the origin and about his own teacher who taught him HRD.
In terms of entire systems, I doubt that there are any links to Ancient Korean martial arts, especially after Yi/Chosun dynasty and the Japanese occupation on top of that. Who knows, maybe we will find something someday, but so far, there is nothing concrete. I have always thought of modern Korean martial arts as having and preserving the warrior spirit of Ancient Korea. This, in my mind, is a legitimate link to the past, but not in the technique/system sense.
I have never trained in Hwarangdo, but I would love to and I would be honored to. From what I have found, the Hwarangdo system itself is Hapkido + Weapons + some Chinese stuff. It was originally referred to as HwarangKwan Hapkido, and the syllabus is very similar to that of Kuk Sool Won (which was also originally called Kuk Sool Hapkido). It is a very good system and very in-depth, it covers all of the bases very well. I have not heard of any system being proven to have a link to the Hwarang. However, this system definitely honors them very well and it is a credit to the culture.
__________________
"Physical strength is measured by what we can carry, spiritual by what we can bear."
- Anonymous
A History of Korean Martial Arts
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