Traditional training vs. '

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

I have only known/heard of school owners getting sued, when their "release forms" did not contain information pertaining to class room injury and/or death. But if an instructor is considered to have caused the injury (intentionally) I'm sure a lawsuit would be in order! Luckily our release forms have been viewed by a private lawyer and our insurance company and their lawyers.. We actually get a deduction in insurance because our release forms contain such things and we even cover our students from being sued by one another! When you sign a "release form" with us you are actually signing a contract of liability.


Although I am unsure as to how well a release form can be written up for full contact sparring.. and/or no pads sparring are concerned, they have however held up for self-defense training and medium to hard contact martial arts training.

Sorry dear,

I dont care who you got to write your release forms, even Johnnie Cochran, there can still be a winnable suit. I see these forms from everything like skydiving, hang gliding, bundgie jumping, etc, extreme sports.

The owners I mentioned, didnt even cause the injury. I know a skydiving company that got sued and lost, just for the client not doing what was instructed.

That paper with that signature is not iron clad and is really a deterant.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

That paper with that signature is not iron clad and is really a deterant.

Though I agree that paper is not iron clad, the fact of the matter, anyone can sue anyone. If these skydiving instructors you know and the martial arts instructors you know both had release forms signed by there students/clients and it was in fact the lack of following instruction that these said students/clients were harmed, then I have to ask: Did both the skydiving instructor and the martial arts instructors you know use the SAME lawyer?? Because release forms are why high school football players can't sue the high school football coach and/or school for broken limbs/etc. (unless of course the coach is the one who broke it) But again, anyone can sue anyone, for just about anything! But will it hold up in court.. most likely not, unless your release forms do not cover said injury/accident, or because of lack of good representation. I've seen parents try to sue soccer leagues for their child's injuries and lost! I've seen adults try to sue local gyms for injuries (do to not being properly trained on equipment) and lost! And I'm not sure if you have read or seen a release form from a soccer league or from a fitness gym, but they are VERY basic! That is what I have seen through my life experiences! And though I will not say that it is NOT possible for a suit, the chances are Slim that the release form wouldn't hold up in court, because like I mentioned it is a contract of services and liability - also, No human has to do what another human tells them to do, if they indeed feel they are at harm!

[JackG]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

If you volunteer to do a "trick" or "stunt" or whatever.. you are putting yourself liable anyway... just as long as the instructor doesn't tell you, that you HAVE to do it ha ha.. but I still think you should anyway *evil grin* But remember we live in America and no one HAS to do what their instructor tells them if they feel threatened or at risk of injury (you may not be allowed back at that club/school, but you don't HAVE to do it)

my brother thought it would be a good way to impress the ladies by smashing a wine bottle on his shin ... it was full of wine ( he didn't know) and covered their handbags in wine they weren't too impressed

[47MartialMan]

Football players have sued coaches and schools-and won.

And though no human has to do what another human tells them to do, if they indeed feel they are at harm, each human looking for restitution, has a chance to win in court all pending judge/jury sympathy.

Grant it, some release forms are stronger than others. grant it that a strong release form will deter action beng sought from a common attorney. Grant it they have a "better chance" in holding up in court, but they are not going to prevent a suit and win every suit.

[souldrum71]

While the discussions on legal issues are somewhat relevant to the topic of this thread, maybe someone should start another thread on legal responsibility and martial arts. I'd like to get this thread back to the original topic. Do you think a school offering traditional training (like I mentioned at the beginning) could survive in Western society? Yes, there would more than likely be legal problems. But what other things might hinder or help such a school.

[47MartialMan]

People are not going to give such effort if they lead normal lives and/or have other carreers.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by JackG

my brother thought it would be a good way to impress the ladies by smashing a wine bottle on his shin ... it was full of wine ( he didn't know) and covered their handbags in wine they weren't too impressed

I should think not LOL

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Grant it they have a "better chance" in holding up in court, but they are not going to prevent a suit and win every suit.

And As I stated in my earlier posts:

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

Though I agree that paper is not iron clad, the fact of the matter, anyone can sue anyone.

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

But will it hold up in court.. most likely not, unless your release forms do not cover said injury/accident, or because of lack of good representation.

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

And though I will not say that it is NOT possible for a suit, the chances are Slim that the release form wouldn't hold up in court

[47MartialMan]

So are we are in agreement - in what way?

[Unkotare]

To answer the question: Yes, I think they could. However, they would have to find and exploit a relatively small market, and wouldn't be able to grow into those ridiculous chain dojos with their daycare services and such.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by Unkotare

To answer the question: Yes, I think they could. However, they would have to find and exploit a relatively small market, and wouldn't be able to grow into those ridiculous chain dojos with their daycare services and such.

I concur with that thinking, and I actually think more schools need to move back to a more traditional curriculum of training. Maybe not as hardcore as how it was in Japan, but hard enough to weed out those who don't take martial arts seriously. But, like others in this thread have mentioned before, you could only train that way if money was not an issue.

[Unkotare]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Most people who train, no matter how hard, tend to have jobs and families and whatnot. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along. The only people training all day everyday are soldiers and professional fighters. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by Unkotare

I don't necessarily agree with that. Most people who train, no matter how hard, tend to have jobs and families and whatnot. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along. The only people training all day everyday are soldiers and professional fighters. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along.

How would having a job or family keep you from undertaking traditional martial arts training? Or did you think I meant that money would have to not be an issue for the students? If so, what I was actually saying is that the owner of the school would not have to rely on a certain number of student dues in order to pay the bills. I believe a hardcore, traditional school wouldn't be able to keep very many students because most folks wouldn't want to train that hard. Therefore, it would probably be a very small student body even in larger cities.

[JackG]

the Dojo I mention earlier people actually move to London to train their its , held that highly so I guess its an exception

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

How would having a job or family keep you from undertaking traditional martial arts training? Or did you think I meant that money would have to not be an issue for the students? If so, what I was actually saying is that the owner of the school would not have to rely on a certain number of student dues in order to pay the bills. I believe a hardcore, traditional school wouldn't be able to keep very many students because most folks wouldn't want to train that hard. Therefore, it would probably be a very small student body even in larger cities.

But your post almost anserws itself.

People who have carreers and family wouldnt want to train hard IS the issue.

They have to spend time on these.

Training isnt about survival like it was long ago.

The majority of the population are NOT martial artists and yet survived.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Unkotare

I don't necessarily agree with that. Most people who train, no matter how hard, tend to have jobs and families and whatnot. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along. The only people training all day everyday are soldiers and professional fighters. Its that way now, and it has been that way all along.

Incipiently what I said;

People are not going to give such effort if they lead normal lives and/or have other carreers.

the question is-

Unless youare going to be a fighter, be in a hardcore environement warraing such, this type of training may seem exorbitant