Traditional training vs. '

[souldrum71]

I've studied martial arts in the United States in what many would call a 'sport karate' school, and I 've studied martial arts in Japan in a very hardcore, traditional karate school.
Explanation:
Sport - Using headgear, hand pads, foot pads, and sometimes shin and elbow pads when sparring / Doing a light number of push-ups, crunches, and other exercises for warm-up / No full contact sparring at all / No body conditioning for contact / Classes that last from 45 min. to one hour
Hardcore, traditional - Full contact kumite with no pads (punching was not allowed to the head but kicking was) / One hundred knuckle or finger push-ups and fifty sit-ups to warm-up / 15 minutes of shin-on-shin strikes with a partner to condition legs / Classes that never were less than one and a half hours long
So my question is this - Do you think that a traditional school using the techniques that I've mentioned to train could survive in the U.S.?

[JackG]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

I've studied martial arts in the United States in what many would call a 'sport karate' school, and I 've studied martial arts in Japan in a very hardcore, traditional karate school.
Explanation:
Sport - Using headgear, hand pads, foot pads, and sometimes shin and elbow pads when sparring / Doing a light number of push-ups, crunches, and other exercises for warm-up / No full contact sparring at all / No body conditioning for contact / Classes that last from 45 min. to one hour
Hardcore, traditional - Full contact kumite with no pads (punching was not allowed to the head but kicking was) / One hundred knuckle or finger push-ups and fifty sit-ups to warm-up / 15 minutes of shin-on-shin strikes with a partner to condition legs / Classes that never were less than one and a half hours long
So my question is this - Do you think that a traditional school using the techniques that I've mentioned to train could survive in the U.S.?

I know of a school like that that's in the uk but out of all their black belts only something like 2 didn't have a dan grade in another art before training they they purely survive by people wanting something more hardcore than just teaching + its not a profit dojo, the fees is just for upkeep of mats etc the sensei their is a shihan of Goju-ryu who trained in Japan.

[sirdarksol]

I think maybe one or two could survive in a large area (more if the owner isn't concerned about paying the bills ), but no, I don't think there are enough Americans in an average city who are both willing to put up with traditional training and interested in martial arts to keep even one such dojo running in every major city. As I said, perhaps in an area (for example, one or two might survive in the whole of MN).

[Jalek Moye]

i plan on opening a school like that, since that was the way i was trained very hardcore

[47MartialMan]

I WORKED OUT WITH TWO US SCHOOLS LIKE THAT...THE DILEMA-INSURANCE AND/OR NO ONE IS WILLING TO SUBJECT THEMSELVES TO IT.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

I think maybe one or two could survive in a large area (more if the owner isn't concerned about paying the bills ), but no, I don't think there are enough Americans in an average city who are both willing to put up with traditional training and interested in martial arts to keep even one such dojo running in every major city. As I said, perhaps in an area (for example, one or two might survive in the whole of MN).

I agree, I've had this discussion with student black belts before and I've always said, SURE I'll teach a hardcore martial arts class, but NO ONE would ever come to it! I think the only American martial artists that really want that kind of class are those who are all ready black belts, and have already had that kind of class training. It's few of us now that would/could appreciate the bruises and pain that come from that kind of training, molding us into the martial artists we are today! Sure some things could be taught without the abuse, but some things (like conditioning) are just things you miss terribly There is NO WAY a school that ONLY taught this could survive (pay the bills) however, I suggest that a school that OFFERS this as an additional class (voluntarily or only for red/black belts) could survive, with medical waivers of course

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

Sounds like fun. And I must say that Americans regularly subject themselves to pain. I assure you running into a 230 pound man at full speed over and over again doesnt feel good. Also anyone ever hear of Rugby, now thats just crazy. I hate it that people always act like Americans arent brollic enough .

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

I agree, I've had this discussion with student black belts before and I've always said, SURE I'll teach a hardcore martial arts class, but NO ONE would ever come to it! I think the only American martial artists that really want that kind of class are those who are all ready black belts, and have already had that kind of class training. It's few of us now that would/could appreciate the bruises and pain that come from that kind of training, molding us into the martial artists we are today! Sure some things could be taught without the abuse, but some things (like conditioning) are just things you miss terribly There is NO WAY a school that ONLY taught this could survive (pay the bills) however, I suggest that a school that OFFERS this as an additional class (voluntarily or only for red/black belts) could survive, with medical waivers of course

Yes, only a few top black belters and I get together every couple of months for hardcore sparring.


With this type of sparring.training, it is lmited to the individuals limitations

[RiveraRa]

Im pretty much just repeating what everyone else has already said but...not only is it an insurance issue but it could also be a lawsuit issue as well.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by RiveraRa

Im pretty much just repeating what everyone else has already said but...not only is it an insurance issue but it could also be a lawsuit issue as well.

Yes, insurance and lawsuits do tend to scare off some Instructors from providing these classes. However, with well written "release" forms you are covered from lawsuits and the students have to provide their own insurance.

But again, I will say that a school could not possibly stay open with ONLY teaching these kinds of classes. The lack of students and income would cause the school to shut down. But, if you were to add this to your weekly classes, then YES you could teach it, even if only 3 people showed up

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

Yes, insurance and lawsuits do tend to scare off some Instructors from providing these classes. However, with well written "release" forms you are covered from lawsuits and the students have to provide their own insurance.

But again, I will say that a school could not possibly stay open with ONLY teaching these kinds of classes. The lack of students and income would cause the school to shut down. But, if you were to add this to your weekly classes, then YES you could teach it, even if only 3 people showed up

"Realese Forms", does not prevent suits. Ive known people (gym owners) to loose in court, even if they had them signed/filled

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

"Realese Forms", does not prevent suits. Ive known people (gym owners) to loose in court, even if they had them sgned/filled

I think MartialMan is right in this case because, as we know, America is now a lawsuit-crazy society. A release form does provide some measure of protection for school owners, but, because of the nature of traditional training and the fact that it seems almost insane to a lot of people, a signed release probably wouldn't stop some lawyers from pressing a case.
It seems that the consensus is that these classes could work but only as added training and only for advanced students.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

"Realese Forms", does not prevent suits. Ive known people (gym owners) to loose in court, even if they had them sgned/filled

I have only known/heard of school owners getting sued, when their "release forms" did not contain information pertaining to class room injury and/or death. But if an instructor is considered to have caused the injury (intentionally) I'm sure a lawsuit would be in order! Luckily our release forms have been viewed by a private lawyer and our insurance company and their lawyers.. We actually get a deduction in insurance because our release forms contain such things and we even cover our students from being sued by one another! When you sign a "release form" with us you are actually signing a contract of liability.


Although I am unsure as to how well a release form can be written up for full contact sparring.. and/or no pads sparring are concerned, they have however held up for self-defense training and medium to hard contact martial arts training.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by ladyfighter

[b][color="Blue"]Although I am unsure as to how well a release form can be written up for full contact sparring.. and/or no pads sparring are concerned, they have however held up for self-defense training and medium to hard contact martial arts training.

How about for shin kicking a baseball bat?

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

How about for shin kicking a baseball bat?

If you volunteer to do a "trick" or "stunt" or whatever.. you are putting yourself liable anyway... just as long as the instructor doesn't tell you, that you HAVE to do it ha ha.. but I still think you should anyway *evil grin* But remember we live in America and no one HAS to do what their instructor tells them if they feel threatened or at risk of injury (you may not be allowed back at that club/school, but you don't HAVE to do it)