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Martial Arts Training & ExercisesDiscuss martial arts training and exercises here
Ok, last night, I decided to try to see how "effective" my own personal knife defense might be. I "armed" three students with training knives which leave a mark on white fabric. I positioned them around the room and told them to "attack" me utilizing any knife attack they wished. I told them not to be passive about it either, so no simple one shot attacks and then waiting for my response. This was to be a full assault. Well, I came out of it fairly unscathed. Yes, I found out what works and what doesn't for the most part. I saw what I already knew as well. I saw that I was GOING to get cut. No matter what it was going to happen. However, all my cuts were on superficial parts of my body. The outside of my forearms mostly, but a couple shots got the tops of my thighs also. I found that it was pretty simple to control the students who are all about my size. Even my own daughter who is a 1st dan in our system was pretty easy to control. I'm sure it looked hilarious form the outside though.
Something to note. I did this with three people who were all armed. It has been my experience that while the secondary atackers may HAVE knifes, most are not deployed at the start of the confrontation. Now, I have no doubt that if it was set up this way, one armed attacker, and two secondarys who had to deploy weapons, I would have done even better. I found a back kick and a side kick to be VERY effective in keeping the other off me while dealing with the main attacker. I also found that the main thing that needed to be done was to isolate the offending arm with the knife. It was quite fun and invigorating. I may incorporate it into our regular training regime.
That's pretty good training method. We have used the rubber knife for obvious reasons but we never had the marking one to see if it really worked or not.
I hate to stir up a controversy here....... but many TMA teaches these types of defenses, against the knife attacker and against multiple attackers, and sometimes both. How effective ... that's debatable.
Do grappling or MMA practice such drills? If so, what would be the technique and how do you think it would fair?
I've done something similar a few times with wooden tantos and magic markers, thing was I video taped it so we could see the results from the third party prospective. It made some really important observations 1) allot of what I thought was effective, wasn't and 2) it all basically came down to timing. The classical wrist-lock defense for a knife didn't work.
When I was on QRF at 503rd back in Korea we had some protesters get on post and try to stab soldiers. Again the common knife-defenses didn't work as taught, they required a little "pain-distraction" to be used effectively. We didn't get too many injuries but thats more because we had flak vests on.
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
We done thngs lie this in the past with a red marker....Though the environment is still controled, and in actuality the trauma of getting cut is absent
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
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I've done training like this many times. Opens your eyes to a lot the first few times you do this. You really start to understand the importance of controlling your opponents and how much of an advantage a weapon can be.
Ok, so MOST of us have done it in the past or currently. What did you find worked best for you?
For me, I would try to "line them up" so I only had to worry about one person stabbing me. If that was not possible, I would take ahold of the closest one who would almost always either stab or slash at me and grab their slashing/stabbing arm and throw them into the next closest person. Then I would take out the third person when they stabbed at me with an aikido type motion/movement. If they are stabbing, then I would step back with my right foot. This moves my body out of the way of the knife. Then I would wrap my left arm around their arm and control the knife with my hands. I would then step around in a clockwise motion with my left foot taking them off balance. Then I would step my left foot BACK behind my right foot in a COUNTERCLOCKWISE motion taking the person down and remove the knife from them. Stab them and move on to the next two again who would now be recovered from hitting eachother and again up and ready to attack me. That was the most common defense I used as well as the most effective.
When they would try to slash at me, I would step back and wait for the first slash to pass, then close the gap and perform an armbar and take them down and remove the knife.
I had more than one occasion when the two first attackers recovered rather quickly and tied to get me from behind which was when the side kicks and back kicks came in handy.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 4,510
Home Country:
I don't have any techniques that I favor over another, but I always try to use the first person as a shield, isolate the hand the knife is being held in, and disarm them as quickly as possible. I also try to disarm them in such a way I end up with the knife, so I can use it against anyone else coming in. Attackers start thinking a lot more about going in to cut you when they have to face a similiar threat, even when in a practice situation.
WC_Lun, you bring up a great point which I mentioned to my students last night. I asked them how many of them were more apprehensive to attack me when they saw that I had just disarmed their classmate. All hands shot up. I then asked them how many of them thought an attacker out on the street would feel the same way. Again, all hands shot up.
I feel that out on the street, the attacker has different forms of courage. In a knife attack, the courage is usually contained within the knife. Take the knife, you steal the courage.
My curriculum hasn't included any weapons training of any kind at all. But I wasn't really looking for that, I think I would find that oddly boring which is weird, I know.
We do learn how to dodge bullets though at the Brown Belt level.
__________________ And who knows, he might could tap me. BUT I have enough confidence in my game to say he can't.
- Jade Dragon
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 4,510
Home Country:
Dang Joe, I thought bullets just bounced off you MMA guys. Now I find out you have to dodge them!! WTH!!
Gambatte, I think some of the courage comes from having you outnumbered as well. If you can really make a point on the first guy it can help. However, like any fight its unpredictable and being outumbered just sucks. Add knives to the mix and your in for a bad day, even if you live.
Knife defense training
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