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...Because people contrast. The obvious example, is simply this: He is incessantly negative and lacks understanding, wisdom and insight. I am a positive thinker, incessantly trying to acquire as much knowledge, wisdom and insight as possible, which is why I have become a member of this website. What I do is not without positive, righteous intention. Unkotare cannot say the same for himself with any truth. Simply put, this is a case of malice vs. righteous intention.
By controlling it, look at history. Hilter used gun regulation to limit guns, he used the registration lists to confiscate guns. There by defeating the purpose of having guns by restricting and controlling them.
And this has Shaolin being "non-authentic"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Japan took a similar step with Okinawa, first restricting them outlawing weapons, then doing so with martial arts as well. The first limitations lead to less effective main stream forms of Okinawan MAs and then to outlawing them, so that if they were practiced in secret it was a lesser form there of.
Not so. Actual Okinawan history, its own nobels outlawed weapons before Japan got there, did it again during Japan being there for politics. Strange you should state practicing martial arts in secret is a lesser form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Shaolin being the "Legandary home of Kung-fu" an icon of Chinese martial arts & religion, the ancient national symbol of Chinese thought and influence.
The ancient Chinese symbol of thought and influence is definately NOT Shaolin....though they, themselves cherish Shaolin like a sports fan cherishes their "team".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
According to the legand, the Buddist monks of China were fat and lazy, an Indian Monk taught them the Da Mo series (root of Shaolin Kung-fu and Chi-Kung). After a while a monk used the Da MO form as the pettern for the mimicing if animals, and shaolin kung-fu was born.
False....the animal patterns were not taught my him. The patterns he taught were simply yoga....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
So the temple wasn't built for Kung-fu, Kung-fu was a matter of necessity. Kung-fu wasn't the purpose the spread of Buddism was, which was passed by the spread of Shaolin Kung-fu. Acording to claim history, just as the Chinese claim that Tibet & part of INdia was origionally Chinese Lands.
Kung fu a matter of necessity for what reason of/for a Chan Buddhist?
Buddhism did not spread Kung fu.......
And therefore claims met with hard research, opposite perspectives, and logical deductions, can prove to be, in order; myth, legendary, hype, and propaganda, the makings to have something intriguing(blissful ignorance, naivity, gullable), creditable(non proven), and give merit (false).
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
True but can the same be said of Judo or Karate, where the U.S. & to some extent the Japanese Governments have influenced/restricted the arts? For example, the U.S. restictions of Bujutsu & Bushido after WW2...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
Not so. Actual Okinawan history, its own nobels outlawed weapons before Japan got there, did it again during Japan being there for politics. Strange you should state practicing martial arts in secret is a lesser form.
Well on the "actual history" your speeking of I'm only quoting the same things taught to me when I studied Karate. I do know however that the practice of martial arts was restricted in the 1700s, 1800s & 1900s in China due to Eight Trigrams Society, The White Lotus Society & the Boxer Rebelion (the second incarnation of the Fist of Rightous Harmony Society, the first was linked to the WLS.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
False....the animal patterns were not taught my him. The patterns he taught were simply yoga....
Yes... And a CHINESE monk, used the yogic patterns to create Chi-Kung, and to pracice the patterns & the movements of animals. Hence the root of the shaolin five animals styles.
That yogic pattern also was the basis of all forms or the practice of forms, in kung-fu. The idea was copied and recopied by other systems as I understand things there are several styles of kung-fu which do not use forms as a training method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
Kung fu a matter of necessity for what reason of/for a Chan Buddhist?)
Don't know I'm not a Buddist. But, then one must ask what purpose did the Christians have of the Templars? After all Christianity does not support violence & the templar order were Christian Knights sworn to protect the holy land. Why did Zen Buddist in Japan kill when attacked by Shinto worshippers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
Buddhism did not spread Kung fu.......
No but it was a tool, at leats as far as in modern China & America. The Eight Trigrams Society, the White Lotus Society & the Fists of Rightous Harmony Society (in both incarnations used kung-fu (five animal & tai chi chaun) to spread their philosphies and religious thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
And therefore claims met with hard research, opposite perspectives, and logical deductions, can prove to be, in order; myth, legendary, hype, and propaganda, the makings to have something intriguing(blissful ignorance, naivity, gullable), creditable(non proven), and give merit (false).
What hard research, all I see if different opinions, some of which I agree with in whole or in part. I see no research & there for no "hard" evidence of anything. So supply me with some links...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
[quote=47MartialMan;58228Kung fu a matter of necessity for what reason of/for a Chan Buddhist?[/QUOTE]
In the interest of doing some research and adding a bit of known facts. I went to Chan Buddism which outlines a few simply principles of the religion. Principle 2, points out that certain actions should be spontanious & without thought. As such, the crane form of kung-fu is mostly blocking technques and as such deflecting, trapping and injuring an attacker is far different then assaulting someone. I picked this site at random, and an interesting point to this is that one the first site the Internet took me to I find that Chan/Chen buddism is connected with Daoism.
The same philosophy is seen in Daoism as well, and to such a degree, that both groups could easily dismiss harming an attacker by virtue of the attacker's choice to attack. By not wanting to harm another it has little effect on one's choice and desire to harm someone else. As such a buddist, and I'm met a few, can easily say the attacker harmed himself by desiring to harm another. So that the idea of blocking to protect & striking to injure, in response to attempting to seriously harmed is seen as a lesser evil & a possible nessicary evil in the moment.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
True but can the same be said of Judo or Karate, where the U.S. & to some extent the Japanese Governments have influenced/restricted the arts? For example, the U.S. restictions of Bujutsu & Bushido after WW2...
Judo, Karate, have tangible authenticity than Shaolin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Well on the "actual history" your speeking of I'm only quoting the same things taught to me when I studied Karate. I do know however that the practice of martial arts was restricted in the 1700s, 1800s & 1900s in China due to Eight Trigrams Society, The White Lotus Society & the Boxer Rebelion (the second incarnation of the Fist of Rightous Harmony Society, the first was linked to the WLS.)
Hence a good reason why the government oppresses martial arts. (Except in the Boxer Rebelion where the Emperous was forced to choose boxers from ploitics.) The problemwith secret societies is the lack of authtnticity/hierarchy. DDue of, course, with their iwn realm of stealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Yes... And a CHINESE monk, used the yogic patterns to create Chi-Kung, and to pracice the patterns & the movements of animals. Hence the root of the shaolin five animals styles.
Actually they werent animal patterns. The five animal styles is a myth, as no one can actually prove or come to agreement which are the five animals used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
That yogic pattern also was the basis of all forms or the practice of forms, in kung-fu. The idea was copied and recopied by other systems as I understand things there are several styles of kung-fu which do not use forms as a training method.
No, they could not have been the basis os all forms of kung fu, because kung fu itself is not a actual art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
Don't know I'm not a Buddist. But, then one must ask what purpose did the Christians have of the Templars? After all Christianity does not support violence & the templar order were Christian Knights sworn to protect the holy land. Why did Zen Buddist in Japan kill when attacked by Shinto worshippers...
Indeed, throughout the ages, just about every religion had its share of people fighting for their cause. But, to you really know Ch'an/Ch'en?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
No but it was a tool, at leats as far as in modern China & America. The Eight Trigrams Society, the White Lotus Society & the Fists of Rightous Harmony Society (in both incarnations used kung-fu (five animal & tai chi chaun) to spread their philosphies and religious thoughts.
But, this was NOT Buddhism of use of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
What hard research, all I see if different opinions, some of which I agree with in whole or in part. I see no research & there for no "hard" evidence of anything. So supply me with some links...
And that is the BIG dilema, there is no hard evidence, then what we learn a bout Buddhissm, Ch'an,?Ch'en, or otherwise, that Shaolin martial arts could ever be priven "Authentic". There are so many arts out there that have more of a "authentic" line, than Shaolin and uses "lees" commercialism and propaganda.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
In the interest of doing some research and adding a bit of known facts. I went to Chan Buddism which outlines a few simply principles of the religion. Principle 2, points out that certain actions should be spontanious & without thought. As such, the crane form of kung-fu is mostly blocking technques and as such deflecting, trapping and injuring an attacker is far different then assaulting someone. I picked this site at random, and an interesting point to this is that one the first site the Internet took me to I find that Chan/Chen buddism is connected with Daoism.
The same philosophy is seen in Daoism as well, and to such a degree, that both groups could easily dismiss harming an attacker by virtue of the attacker's choice to attack. By not wanting to harm another it has little effect on one's choice and desire to harm someone else. As such a buddist, and I'm met a few, can easily say the attacker harmed himself by desiring to harm another. So that the idea of blocking to protect & striking to injure, in response to attempting to seriously harmed is seen as a lesser evil & a possible nessicary evil in the moment.
Interesting that your deduction was from but visiting a site or two, without actually conducting many interviews with people/buddhists.
I find your usuage of trying to describe and relate it to crane amusing, as a person of knowledge from the order would find also. I, like they, would realise from such post, that you really dont knope Ch'en/Ch'an/ or Buddhism.
Also, Daoism and Buddhism may seem "connected", but the concepts are vastly apart.
In such works as "Their Search for God"-Florence Fitch and "What the Buddha Taught"-Walpola Rahula, make attempts to give an insight of distinction.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Actually I have spoken with Buddist Monks in Korea, when I was stationed their & a few varing religions when I visited China & toured the temple of heavens.
And yes, the White Lotus & Eight Trigrams were Taoist & Buddist in nature, they didn't want non-Chinese thought influencing China. Same with the second incarnation of the fists of rightous harmony, in fact that what defined the Boxer Rebelion.
And again I took a random site, if it supproted your claims I'd have simply said OK. But, I have yet to see any sites or research material on your claims. So here is what I've found on five animals, as the local kung-fu instuctor here says the five animals are (basic) and are Crane, Leopard, Tiger, Snake & Dragon.
So in suming this up, I do not practice kung-fu. I am friends with several kung-fu instructors, which one of teaches five animals kung-fu (also called shaolin kung-fu). By that limited knowledge I have aquired I know only what I am told & have read. As such if you have any sites or historical documentation or sites with such please post them and I'll read them.
As far as Buddism goes, and I was explained to from a Buddist monk on the train from Tongduchion to Pionteak (sp?) Buddism does not alloe violence. But violence is caused by the intention of the ego, i.e. it is not violence to protect someone else or defend one's life when there is no other option. More so, the action of in-action can be seen as bad karma since if you allow a crime to be commited and you could have stopped it you are still guity of allowing it to take place.
So the Buddist monks in Korea did in this day and claim to from privious generations, practice martial arts with the intention of limiting or preventing someone from harming another.
So since you haven't read that I spoke to a buddist, actually multiple buddist & buddist monks while stationed over seas. I'll state it again form you & ask you to supply some evidence of your thoeties which I've only heard from you. Otherwise your just arguing pointlessly...
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
Actually I have spoken with Buddist Monks in Korea, when I was stationed their & a few varing religions when I visited China & toured the temple of heavens.
And yes, the White Lotus & Eight Trigrams were Taoist & Buddist in nature, they didn't want non-Chinese thought influencing China. Same with the second incarnation of the fists of rightous harmony, in fact that what defined the Boxer Rebelion.
And again I took a random site, if it supproted your claims I'd have simply said OK. But, I have yet to see any sites or research material on your claims. So here is what I've found on five animals, as the local kung-fu instuctor here says the five animals are (basic) and are Crane, Leopard, Tiger, Snake & Dragon.
So in suming this up, I do not practice kung-fu. I am friends with several kung-fu instructors, which one of teaches five animals kung-fu (also called shaolin kung-fu). By that limited knowledge I have aquired I know only what I am told & have read. As such if you have any sites or historical documentation or sites with such please post them and I'll read them.
As far as Buddism goes, and I was explained to from a Buddist monk on the train from Tongduchion to Pionteak (sp?) Buddism does not alloe violence. But violence is caused by the intention of the ego, i.e. it is not violence to protect someone else or defend one's life when there is no other option. More so, the action of in-action can be seen as bad karma since if you allow a crime to be commited and you could have stopped it you are still guity of allowing it to take place.
So the Buddist monks in Korea did in this day and claim to from privious generations, practice martial arts with the intention of limiting or preventing someone from harming another.
So since you haven't read that I spoke to a buddist, actually multiple buddist & buddist monks while stationed over seas. I'll state it again form you & ask you to supply some evidence of your thoeties which I've only heard from you. Otherwise your just arguing pointlessly...
Korean Buddhist monks are quite different than Chinese Ch'an ones. Also, I met a few Buddhists who claim to be monks, and a few who "entertain" non Buddhists for the purpose of intrique. In other wrods, they allow their "audience" to beleive what they will (the audience's own beliefs)
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Question on Ninjutsu
