Question on Ninjutsu

[sirdarksol]

Ben's post is somewhat right.

However, the situation he described is more likely a reason that many peasants (actually, more of the merchant class) joined the samurai. The era where more samurai abused their power came after the ninja already existed.

It is generally believed that the first ninja clan started from the remnants of a clan of samurai whose lord had been killed (or, alternately, a disparate group of samurai whose lords had been killed). These ronin grew tired of the way that ronin were generally treated, and ended up forming a clan, using the financial strength of members of the merchant class to build their new clan.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by Ben

Just my opinion... likely not right

Well, you were right about one thing.

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Ben's post is somewhat right.

That post is somewhat wrong.

If you want to start on the path of ninjitsu, order one of Ashida Kim's video tapes on the "Kata Dante", or at least go get it off of Youtube. The latter is more in keeping with the principles of ninjitsu. Why pay, when you can get it, stealthily, for free?

Practice the Kata Dante. Live the Kata Dante. Be the Kata Dante.

[sirdarksol]

John, rather than making three separate posts to quote two people then add your own opinion, you can use the "multi-quote" button, right next to the quote button, quote both people, put your responses in, then put your own info at the end (or the beginning, if you prefer) of your message.

Also, rather than just posting a negative, please post what you think is the right anwer.

I would like to point out that the "Kata Dante" is a recent development of a rogue student of Sensei Robert Trias. Sensei Trias was a karate-ka, and did not practice any form of ninjitsu.
We have a discussion on the "Kata Dante" somewhere around here.
Ninjitsu stretches back for centuries, and something that was created thirty to forty years ago by a karateka has little to do with such a rich history.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

John, rather than making three separate posts to quote two people then add your own opinion, you can use the "multi-quote" button, right next to the quote button, quote both people, put your responses in, then put your own info at the end (or the beginning, if you prefer) of your message.
.

Sorry, I'll start multiquoting ASAP. I think I'll start putting my input at the end of the posts. I'll try to be more informative, since I have a lot of experience in this art.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

Sorry, I'll start multiquoting ASAP. I think I'll start putting my input at the end of the posts. I'll try to be more informative, since I have a lot of experience in this art.

Excellent. We can ask for nothing more.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

I would like to point out that the "Kata Dante" is a recent development of a rogue student of Sensei Robert Trias. Sensei Trias was a karate-ka, and did not practice any form of ninjitsu.
We have a discussion on the "Kata Dante" somewhere around here.
Ninjitsu stretches back for centuries, and something that was created thirty to forty years ago by a karateka has little to do with such a rich history.

Actually, the KAta Dante is a modification of an older kata known as "The Rain-Water Slough"....in rough translation off the top of my head. It's a distillation of many of ninjitsu's core techniques, as taught to children. Despite the Kata Dante's "spurious" origins, it is a useful tool for tots.

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Also, rather than just posting a negative, please post what you think is the right anwer.

I don't think either one of them was right. Ninjas were ninjas, samurai were samurai, and ronin were ronin. Ronin were masterless samurai; samurai had masters; ninjas were masters. It's really a simple hierarchy.

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

I don't think either one of them was right. Ninjas were ninjas, samurai were samurai, and ronin were ronin. Ronin were masterless samurai; samurai had masters; ninjas were masters. It's really a simple hierarchy.

And here I thought that it was the Shogun who were above the Samurai in the Japanese hierarchy. Stupid world history textbook. (Or maybe the ninjas are so secret that they didn't want me to know about their rule over all of Japan.)

[47MartialMan]

If there are any ninjas on this board, we shouldnt be seeing any of them.

[Zaraki Kenpachi]

Actually you would see them but not know they are Shinobi, they would blend in with everyday life seamlessly.

[Akai Shizuku]

I would also like to add that if you got into a fight with a ninja *or* samurai you were obviously in very, very deep doo doo.

[Draven]

In ready this there are several facts that need to be addressed. I teach ninjitsu, myself, my reasoning is that it works and running away to hide works best is most real world situations.

Anyway, samurai and ninja history is widely known. However, the ashigarusha were largely over looked. Ashigaru were literally foot soldiers and conscripted peasants during times of war. So even the common peasant had some fundamental combat skills. Sad but true, now that means almost anyone could be a ninja, samurai, peasant, criminals.

This blurs the historic lineage/historic record arguement greatly. Now factor in that Hatsumi (the legitimate ninja-master hasn't allowed his "ninja scrolls" to be varified), that allot of historic records went by-by with the A-bomb, and that ninjitsu/ninjutsu can be traced to three seperate (2 major)sources. Its one big cluster ****, in trying to track things down.

Bujutsu (War or Martial Arts) is one source of ninjitsu taken from dishonorible methods taught to samurai of high rank who inturn would teach certain others to create their own spy/assassin cells.

Yamabusi-Ryu was the methods of warrior monks, who in turn taught their methods to peasants. As such both the Chinese culture (Sun Tsu) that influenced the Bujutsu Ryus also is the source of the Yamabushi-Rhu styles.

The thrid source I mention earilier goes along with the rebel-peasant-living-the-mountains idea. But is mixed source of defectors from the Bujutsu schools and Yamabushi clans.

As for Kata Dante, to my knowledge Ashida Kim studied Karate and Judo and then learned Ninjutsu. Mixing Karate & Judo and various Kung-fu forms into that Ninjitsu style. Of which he also learned the Kata Dante and added it.

[John Takeshi]

Originally Posted by Draven

As for Kata Dante, to my knowledge Ashida Kim studied Karate and Judo and then learned Ninjutsu. Mixing Karate & Judo and various Kung-fu forms into that Ninjitsu style. Of which he also learned the Kata Dante and added it.

It dates from 720 BCE. This is a fact. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it seems to be utterly and completely incorrect. I'm not saying that as a statement of fact. It's just true, and that's all there is to it.

[Unkotare]

Oh brother, someone's been drinking the koolaide...

[Draven]

Originally Posted by John Takeshi

It dates from 720 BCE. This is a fact. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it seems to be utterly and completely incorrect. I'm not saying that as a statement of fact. It's just true, and that's all there is to it.

So please tell where you are getting your information?

Because I have talked to Ashida Kim. And by his own admitance, he studied judo and karate on military bases as a kid. He also has stated that he learned ninjitsu because of how well he had learn those other arts. The Kata Dante was origionally form of hungar kung fu, modified by john keehan aka juan raphiel dante into the kata dante. The specific form, prior to its modification was a chinese kung fu form and does go back far longer.

I got my info from Ashida Kim, John Keehan's own written material & interview with Black Belt Magazine. I have direct first hand and indirect first hand accounts. Nothing is plain wrong unless these men are lieing.

[Unkotare]

Ok, just to be clear, everyone knows Ashida Kim is perhaps the biggest fraud/joke in the entire MA universe, right?