Why Ninjutsu?

[WC_Lun]

Its similiar to the Bruce Lee phenomenon. Lots of people saw Bruce Lee on the big screen and it motivated them to take martial arts. To me that's a good thing. However, very few beginners realize that what is choreographed for the movies isn't what the real stuff is like. It gets romanticized and that leads to many people learning fantasy martial arts and thinking its real. After all, it looks like what Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Lee, etc etc did in so-and-so movie. Probably every person in here with more than a few years experience has seen someone mimicking what they have seen on the screen and calling it real. Ufortunately movie fu doesn't hold up to the test.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Hajilee

It seems to me that people have set aside Ninjutsu as the "Ultimate Martial Art" in various forums it has recieved the highest votes and has had the general consensus as the best.

Ninjitsu has fallen out of that "ultimate martial art" stereo-type-myth because most people who practice ninjutsu have turned into whiny little kids who are more interesting in politics & money then in actually training. IMHO

Originally Posted by Hajilee

What sets Ninjutsu out from other martial arts for you? I haven't seen much, but it seems a little bit like, Aikido or Judo mixed with some fancy sword stuff.

Well for me I found two groups of "ninja" (yeah yeah)...

Group A: Are for lack of a better term idiots, who like has already been stated are trying to project themselves into history, TV or fantasies, often this group ranges from pre-teen nerds who desire to beat up the jocks to wonna be historians who want to use history and media to mislead you into giving you money.
Group A is why I quit the Bujinkan; too many people deliberately spreading lies & slinging mud to pass of the "legetimate ninjutsu myth." This of course isn't a reflection on the many good instructors within the organization.

Group 2: Are the people who focus on real world effectiveness, these people include the & apply the arts of assassination, stealth and ambush to hieghten self-defense skills. After all a mugger can't mug you if your not there. A good list of these people include the Isreali who was Hatsumi's first western student, Robert Bussey, Ronald Duncan and several other who no longer are alive such as Don Dreuger, Kawazashi ??? who was part of Japan's ninja commando unit during world war two and trained the Japan Espionage Service and Irgum.

To that effect the second group have set themselves apart as they practice and apply ninjutsu as a military art.

Originally Posted by Hajilee

If you could explain what sets this martial art from all the rest and maybe post a video of some sparring or training that'd be great.

Well to answer this, let me first explain why I studied ninjutsu. For personal reasons I was a troubled kid who is now a troubled adult martial arts was my refuge and I ate, slept and breathed MA. I always wanted to learn ninjutsu because of the movies and the history.
I found a Bujinkan dojo and listened to the propaganda and did the training and found things severally lacking. I did manage to find a person who had studied Koga Omoto Ryu Ninjutsu and its tradition is a philosophic expansion of adaptation and personal growth. "Tradition without a purpose is worthless."

The last ninja in Japan was not Hatsumi but Seiko Fujita he trained and ran a commando force in Burma and China for 4 years, with out support in WW2. Fujita was the Grandmaster of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu and Nan Ban Sato Ryu Kenpo. Before his death Fujita combined the methods of koga ryu ninjutsu which had little need for hand-to-hand skills and contained only basic jujutsu skills with the kenpo style he had mastered. He also added elements of Chinese Martial Arts & Okinawan Karate. Fujita trained with many of great master of Jujutsu & Bujutsu and the founders of Shotokan, Judo and Aikido. After the conversion of Fujita's new ninjutsu system he called it Koga-Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu.

Koga-Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu roughly translates to Koga Family Sato School of Ninjutsu which marks the converging of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu & Sato Ryu Kenpo. So to see a strictly "traditional" school of ninjutsu defeats the idea of adaptation and growth that has always characterized ninjutsu as an art.

[sannin227]

Originally Posted by Draven

Ninjitsu has fallen out of that "ultimate martial art" stereo-type-myth because most people who practice ninjutsu have turned into whiny little kids who are more interesting in politics & money then in actually training. IMHO

I thought it was people get into it for fantastic reasons and become more serious later on (not all).

Originally Posted by Draven

Group A: Are for lack of a better term idiots, who like has already been stated are trying to project themselves into history, TV or fantasies, often this group ranges from pre-teen nerds who desire to beat up the jocks

What is wrong with that? Many people (I hate the term nerd) are abused by "jocks" just because they are smart or say things badly, or are weak, etc.. What is wrong with wanting to be able to defend yourself when being wrongly abused.

Originally Posted by Draven

The last ninja in Japan was not Hatsumi but Seiko Fujita he trained and ran a commando force in Burma and China for 4 years, with out support in WW2. Fujita was the Grandmaster of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu and Nan Ban Sato Ryu Kenpo. Before his death Fujita combined the methods of koga ryu ninjutsu which had little need for hand-to-hand skills and contained only basic jujutsu skills with the kenpo style he had mastered. He also added elements of Chinese Martial Arts & Okinawan Karate. Fujita trained with many of great master of Jujutsu & Bujutsu and the founders of Shotokan, Judo and Aikido. After the conversion of Fujita's new ninjutsu system he called it Koga-Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu.

Koga-Ha Sato Ryu Ninjutsu roughly translates to Koga Family Sato School of Ninjutsu which marks the converging of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu & Sato Ryu Kenpo. So to see a strictly "traditional" school of ninjutsu defeats the idea of adaptation and growth that has always characterized ninjutsu as an art.

What are you talking about? There IS (note not WAS) more than just one "ninja" left in Japan, and your talking like Hatsumi is dead, he is the grandmaster of his style(s) and niether him nor the other person you mentioned is/was the last "ninja" in Japan.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by sannin227

I thought it was people get into it for fantastic reasons and become more serious later on (not all).

In some cases yes, the allot of information on ninjutsu is obscured for various reasons. Some people I know are learned ninjutsu to beable to catch bullets with their teeth (not seriously) and then grew up and out of the "Hollywood imagery," allot of people well lets just say it ain't good.

Originally Posted by sannin227

What is wrong with that? Many people (I hate the term nerd) are abused by "jocks" just because they are smart or say things badly, or are weak, etc.. What is wrong with wanting to be able to defend yourself when being wrongly abused.

Nothing is wrong with wanting to defend yourself, I support that 100%, but there are issues with troubled (emotionallt tormented) kids wanting to learn ninjutsu to become "ninja assassins" and "assassinate" the jocks.
I've worked with a few kids who had problems, some wanted to defend themselves and some wanted to return abuse ofr abuse. Some kids will take MAs for that reason not just ninjutsu, it one of those "things."

Originally Posted by sannin227

What are you talking about? There IS (note not WAS) more than just one "ninja" left in Japan, and your talking like Hatsumi is dead, he is the grandmaster of his style(s) and niether him nor the other person you mentioned is/was the last "ninja" in Japan.

One Hatsumi is already passing himself off on the "Last Ninja" title, and as far as I know from when I was in the Bujinkan he never did any special ops stuff with his ninjutsu. As for Seiko Fujita, yes he was the last ninja (not "ninja") in Japan.
Seiko Fujita was a war hero, an Officer and was responsible for the training used by the Japanese Espionage Service & the Irgun through his former students.

Also Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu is not a proven linage, just claimed to be proven. The only proven koryu ninjutsu systems in Japan (something Hatsumi claims but has never proven) are the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu which has ninjutsu as only part of the art.

I won't argue effectiveness because I've met all ot Bujin guys who made big claims and couldn't fight out of a paper bag and allof who were very impressive fighters. I will say this much, it you are going to have an organization where individuals make it a point to debase other arts then at least do so truthfully.

For the Bujinkan instructors and students who are actually respectable & good-intended in their training I have the upmost respect. But, in return I don't have respect for the money hungery, debasing & abusive members who need lineage to prove the true mythical ninja image/propaganda then I have no respect for them. Thats true of all of MAs as well, but its more so for myself having been in an organization and spoon fed allot of BS by the "authentic ninjutsu schools" and having found out it was all BS.

[Ninjutsu Panama]

I agre with u Draven in some aspects, I as a member of the Bujinkan find it annoying that many instructors claim that this is the "ultimate martial art" and that their is historic proof and all that, only 3 of the nine ryuha have been proven to be legit, the other one's aren't, but that's not the most important thing in martial arts, the most important thing is if the techniques really wok and they do! and if the martial art helps you to improve and become better as a human being then it's great! I don't care about lineage or that stuff, leave that to Soke Hatsumi.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Ninjutsu Panama

I agre with u Draven in some aspects, I as a member of the Bujinkan find it annoying that many instructors claim that this is the "ultimate martial art" and that their is historic proof and all that, only 3 of the nine ryuha have been proven to be legit, the other one's aren't, but that's not the most important thing in martial arts, the most important thing is if the techniques really wok and they do! and if the martial art helps you to improve and become better as a human being then it's great! I don't care about lineage or that stuff, leave that to Soke Hatsumi.

No they aren't proven...

Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu is only mentioned in Hatsumi's claimed historic documents, documents which have never been varified. I know when allot the Bujinkan propaganda was cut away for me, by two of Robert Bussey's old students I did some research on my own.

Seems the two, organizations for decyphering & restoring anceint MA text in Japan doen't reconize Hatsumi. Since his scrolls were never handed over to be tested. The fact is the only Koryu source of ninjutsu proven without a doubt is the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu which isn't a ninjutsu school but a Bujutsu school, also Koryu.com had an essay that was taken off because there were conflicts and threats of law suits (rumored) from the Bujinkan.

The story told on many Bujinkan web sites that Seiko Fujita died in a car accent has been proven false by Fujita's obituary which states liver failure.

As I said, there are allot of good instructors but having spoken with & done the research myself, I can tell you Koga Ryu Ninjutsu from Fujita's lineage did survive and had made its way to the U.S. long before Stephen Hayes came to America with it.

Also as I stated before, ninjutsu is a "sub-art" to the whole of bujutsu that could be practiced as an independant art. As I said before I won't argue effectiveness, or Hatsumi's honor, but arguing lineage when none exists is just a way to get money. That doesn't mean that people are lying, they may believe what they say but it doesn't stack up to the evidence as whole. This doesn't mean Frank Dux or Ashida Kim are off the hook for their own "fuzziness" either.

If Joe Nobody teaches my No-Notta-Karate and claims it has a proven lineage and I believe it and teach other students that the lineage is real, even the person who taught it to me made it up in his basement by watching the Power Rangers and Jackie Chan Movies it doesn't mean that I am lying when I say my lineage is proven. To me my lineage is proven & thats not the same when addressed with other factors of evidence.

I'll post some sites later...

[Draven]

"The Koga ryu of ninjutsu survived through the generations until the 1960s, when the unfortunate death of Fujita Seiko, the last possible Grandmaster of the Koga ryu (style) of ninjutsu, ended the ancient tradition. Before his death, Fujita claimed he did not, and would not pass on his Koga ryu to anyone. For more information on Fujita Seiko, visit the Fujita Seiko link on this site. The Iga ryu however, lives on in the Bujinkan."

From sites...

Bujinkan Kumogakure Dojo, North Carolina

History

And many other associated sites Bujinkan sites;

Now another site held by the Bujinkan has these documents and says something quite different...

"In the 1978 revision, Watatani then summarized and reflected upon Fujita's information: "So here Fujita Seiko was the last soke of this ryuha and it was one of 6 ryu that belonged to the Minamiyama Rokke, maybe 6 strong families or an organization." He ends his reflection in a very telling way by writing, "also, nobody knows this ryuha today. I think he never taught it." This is a damning verdict from a man who is the author of Japan's official "Martial Arts Directory," a publication that is considered the authority in all matters of Japanese martial arts. This statement by Watatani, absent outright and validated evidence contradicting it, must be considered martial arts canon."

From here
specifically under the "Last Koga Ninja" section. Note that this actually well researched information which I find very creditable states that the writer of the interview says "I think he never taught it." One's guess (no matter how educated), do not suggest fact. And it certainly does not mean Fujita said so.

More so, Fujita Seiko: The Last Koga Ninja or atFujita Seiko: The Last Koga Ninja page five of the image, note it states under the bold heading "The legacy of Saiko Fujita" that Seiko Fujita was an intelligence officer and had trained special forces and espionage forces in various aspects of Ninjutsu.

Such study was also gained by the Allied Forces after WW2 as a spoil of war, which is the basis for the British SAS claim to have studied ninjutsu long before Stephen Hayes & Ashida Kim and ninja-boom become know words...

[WC_Lun]

Draven, excellent info.

[energizerbunny63]

teenage mutant ninja turtles did ninjitsu, obviously, and that just seems wierd because they have magical powers and real ninjas don't.:: santa

[Them's Fighting Words]

Originally Posted by Draven

Nothing is wrong with wanting to defend yourself, I support that 100%, but there are issues with troubled (emotionallt tormented) kids wanting to learn ninjutsu to become "ninja assassins" and "assassinate" the jocks.
I've worked with a few kids who had problems, some wanted to defend themselves and some wanted to return abuse ofr abuse. Some kids will take MAs for that reason not just ninjutsu, it one of those "things."

As news has shown us, such attitudes are destrcutive. Even worse when they get thier hands on fire-arms.

Personally I'd like to do Ninjutsu due to my experience with those who were actually capable practitioners. I have met the idiot "Screaming Ninjas". The ones who run around telling everyone about thier Death Touches then get their heads kicked in by real MAs. I have also met the real deal guys. Very impressive and knowledgeable.

Also ninjutsu goes beyond the physical aspects of MA. Never underestimate the need for pyscholoical and strategic training.

[Ying&Yang]

Lets face ti everyone at some stage wants to be a ninja , look at TMNT lol. But as a style there is not perfect or best" style. I train in nin-jitsu and i believe there are weaknesses thats why i do other styles also. I think it is just a mind set in the younger less experienced martial artist for the reason nin-jitsu is so loved.

[dreamtime7]

Originally Posted by Them's Fighting Words

As news has shown us, such attitudes are destrcutive. Even worse when they get thier hands on fire-arms.

Personally I'd like to do Ninjutsu due to my experience with those who were actually capable practitioners. I have met the idiot "Screaming Ninjas". The ones who run around telling everyone about thier Death Touches then get their heads kicked in by real MAs. I have also met the real deal guys. Very impressive and knowledgeable.

Also ninjutsu goes beyond the physical aspects of MA. Never underestimate the need for pyscholoical and strategic training.

I've only ever met the first kind of ninja. All that wierd mysticism and secret techniques rubbish is nothing more than a marketing tool and unfortunately it seems to work. Look at crook; Ashida Kim. We all know he's bogus, yet he still manages to get people suckered in because he's a "ninja". Maybe there are real ninjas out there, but there are so many LARPers that it's not worth seeking them out. Especially when there are other martial arts systems which have proven thier worth.

[Chapel]

To everyone in the forum: do not take this as an opportunity to rant about Kim. There are other topics for that and let's keep the toxic waste localized.

Don't worry Dream, you did nothing wrong.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

i like the training i do with the circle that i associate with in the Bujinkan. they constantly travel and communicate with Hatsumi and transmit knowledge and current training to the students. since alot of us are in law enforcement and military that is also taken into consideration when it comes to realistic training and application of techniques.

alot of schools dont follow that practice an thats what makes things bad...it happens in every art.

with authenticity as far as Bujinkan is concerned, i look at it like this

when u consider the validity of a ryuha or school theres 4 things to look at. this is gonna be a long post

1. Can the instructor making claim as the Soke or other teaching authority, like being the menkyo kaiden holder be tied to the art?

most people from other ninjutsu schools cant answer this question like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Bryce Dallas etc. they cant even proove that they even trained in the art in the first place in some instances.

now Takamatsu claimed Soke-ship of several different Ryuha that were passed on to Hatsumi sensei and you can see from films and photographic evidence that Hatsumi trained under him



2. Is the instructor named as Soke or Menkyo Kaiden holder of that particular art? anyone who has been to Hatsumi's home can see
the Menkyo that bears his name as the designee holder with Takamatsu's name as the Designator. theres also photographs of these floating around in the private collections of some students and in different publications.



3.Can the art itself be traced back historically in some sort of verifiable way?

in the Kakutogi no Rekishi (History of fighting arts) page 508- 517 this part of the book describes a periodical published in 1843 describing twenty famous ryuhas which were known as being very "effective arts".

in no particular order we have Gyokko Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and Takagi Ryu. theres is also Asayama Ichiden Ryu which is not part of the Bujinkan's 9 schools but was studied by Hatsumi.

this is a good start that shows that the 9 schools of Bujinkan have a verifiable history.

with the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (Encyclopedia of Martial schools) it is acknowledged as one of the most exhaustive lists of martial arts schools in Japan but not the only 3rd party source but it does list the full

lineage of an art So you can turn to the page for Gyokko Ryu and look at the last entry and see who was the recognized Soke at the time of publication.

For Gyokko Ryu, we can see “Hatsumi Yoshiaki (Chiba-ken Noda-shi)” listed after Takamatsu To****sugu, Toda Shinryuken, and others all the way up to the beginning of the Ryuha.

This book has entries bearing the name of Hatsumi-sensei below Takamatsu-sensei for the following school entries: Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Kukishinden Happohiken Jutsu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

if you look at the entry for Takagi Yoshin Ryu, you are referenced to the listing for Takagi Ryu which was also listed in Kakutogi no Rekishi as described earlier.

Hatsumi-sensei is one of six individuals listed below Takamatsu-sensei in this listing because Takamatsu-sensei split his scrolls among several students, including Akimoto and Hanaoka, among others.

so based on that we get this score with all 9 schools of Bujinkan having some sort of historical reference:

Gyokko Ryu – Kakutogi no Rekishi , Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Gikan Ryu – Kakutogi no Rekishi , Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Kukishin Ryu – Kakutogi no Rekishi , Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Takagi Yoshin Ryu – Kakutogi no Rekishi , Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Shinden Fudo Ryu – Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Kumogakure Ryu – Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Gyokushin Ryu – Kakutogi no Rekishi
Koto Ryu – Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
Togakure Ryu – Bugei Ryuha Daijiten

as said before, there are other references besides these 2 books....but with just these 2 books we are able to verify that the Bujinkan's 9 schools are recognized by at least 2independent 3rd party researchers

this differentiates Hatsumi and Takamatsu sensei from the Ashida Kims and Bryce Dallas' and Frank Dux's etc.

Takamatsu teaches Hatsumi these arts and provides certifications that name Hatsumi as the guy in charge of these ryuha. again, alot of instructors from other ninjutsu schools CANT do this.



4.can the actual documents that the individual possesses be historically verified in some form?

now we are talking about actual physical artifacts ( the scrolls), rather than the traditions/history of the Ryuha which as mentioned before were documented.

in general, it is not “common” for people to submit their scrolls for scientific dating or examination unless there is a purpose in doing so, such as for joining a particular organization.

To do so “just to check,” would be like saying, “I think my teacher lied to me,” which conflicts with the teacher-student trust that should be expected between a grandmaster and his named heir.

It would be the same as a woman who has her engagement ring checked out, just to see if the guy really loves her. That’s a bit crass for most people.

Given Takamatsu-sensei’s unimpeachable status in two very important Ryuha (Kukishin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu), it actually is ludicrous to think that Hatsumi sensei would rush off to get the actual artifacts that Takamatsu-sensei gave him verified.


one other thing about Menkyo Kaiden scrolls that alot of people seem to not realize is that not all historical martial arts schools had "official scrolls" some arts are transmitted by way of Densho while other arts are transmitted by Kuden or oral transmission.

also any Soke is free to re-write or alter the scrolls however he sees fit to do so. this includes re-arranging techniques, replacing techniques with other "better" techniques. or removing/adding techniques that the Soke feels better captures the essence of the tradition. these are what the Soke does to ensure the adaptation and survival of thier art through different time periods.

there is the argument that Hatsumi wont let his scrolls be viewed by researchers for verification....he actually does let researchers view his scrolls....as long as they view it in his presence....

...what person in thier right mind would just let someone take thier scroll which is of sentimental value to thier home to drool over. even so....regarding the above listed....a litmus test is inappropriate