Shinobi Soldiers

[WC_Lun]

Personally, if Wing Chun was proven to be created by some pencil necked geek in his mom's basement, I'd be a little disapointed, but would still love what I'm studying. Why? Because it is effective as hell, as I am studying it, and that is what is important to me. I find it a bit amusing the contreversy about if this or that is "real" depending upon the veracity of the history of the art. Most of the time that historical veracity has many holes and cannot be proven.

I guess the point I am trying to make is when that big ass drunk red neck is about to punch you in the nose, does the history of the art really matter? More important in my mind is if what I know is really gonna save me.

[TRIANGLEFROMGUARD]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

Personally, if Wing Chun was proven to be created by some pencil necked geek in his mom's basement, I'd be a little disapointed, but would still love what I'm studying. Why? Because it is effective as hell, as I am studying it, and that is what is important to me. I find it a bit amusing the contreversy about if this or that is "real" depending upon the veracity of the history of the art. Most of the time that historical veracity has many holes and cannot be proven.

I guess the point I am trying to make is when that big ass drunk red neck is about to punch you in the nose, does the history of the art really matter? More important in my mind is if what I know is really gonna save me.

Right I agree but I think a lot of people see the history of their art as some sort of validity. Which isn't 100% a bad thing when its documented.

[Joemoplata]

My personal feelings on it are that history and tradition of what you're training should not outweigh how you train. If it seems to be that way where you train, leave. Religions and cults are created by myth and lies and half-truths, leave martial arts to what you can see with your own two eyes not what some dude tells you is some secret society nonsense that has been carried down for hundreds of years.

[TRIANGLEFROMGUARD]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

My personal feelings on it are that history and tradition of what you're training should not outweigh how you train. If it seems to be that way where you train, leave. Religions and cults are created by myth and lies and half-truths, leave martial arts to what you can see with your own two eyes not what some dude tells you is some secret society nonsense that has been carried down for hundreds of years.

Unless of course that dude is Judd Nelson, he's harsh!

[JuJido]

I wouldn't care if what I was training in was developed yesterday, as long as it worked and was effective. I don't get sentimental about this stuff and quite frankly, simply because something was traditionally done a certain way doesn't mean it works or is still relevant. Things must evolve, change and adapt in order to remain relevant.

Having said that, history does add an interesting element to life but again, it doesn't make something currently relevant. I mean, historically the Mongolians ruled virtually all of Asia and yet what are they today? Interesting story, no modern day substance.

[Jaykane77]

I agree with you guys if it works it works and doesn't matter if it was created last week...

I think the problem with "ninjutsu" is that people just won't be honest about it. The Shoninki and the Bansenshukai are being translated into English at the moment and the chapters DO NOT mention martial arts, but that doesn't mean they didn't fight. The leading historian in Japan (Nakashima Sensei) has these scrolls and he says that the scrolls do not mention a martial arts fighting system.

I have studied "ninjutsu" for over 10 years and achieved a 2nd Dan but now I know it's not ninjutsu but an old form of jujitsu, but that doesn't bother me because what I have learnt has worked because I have had to use it one before.

Triangle - you are really funny - keep it up!

[Jaykane77]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

ive seen and read the scrolls. im not as strong a history buff as my other fellow counterparts but based on what ive researched and my experience of living and training in Japan and elsewhere i know its not contrived.

im looking at it objectively and not biased. you dont neccessarily have to train at a modern school to fully understand the history portion.

some schools do have historical ties and are acknowledge and recognized by the Japanese government or Royal family or Japanese historians.

but to not have no experience in the art and then act like you know more than someone who trains and studies the history from different texts is the funny part.

no experience? I have mailed the guy he studied ninjutsu and is a 4th Dan and has lived and trained in Japan and is translating the scrolls into English.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I disagree. You cannot take your bias out of the discussion, it's almost impossible. I mean, if you were to be shown proof positive that what you train was made up by some white guy in 1925 would you still train in that art? Would you continue to support what you have learned knowing that you have been lied to about it's history?

lol. that white guy in 1925 part made me choke on my juice. ive asked a similar question to my seniors and to myself and came to the conclusion that if my school in particular

was made up by a very imaginative dude...oh well screw it. they did a good job making up some stuff and it being a fun and rough training experience.

but i dont really see myself as bias in general.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Jaykane77

no experience? I have mailed the guy he studied ninjutsu and is a 4th Dan and has lived and trained in Japan and is translating the scrolls into English.

i wasnt talkin bout him specifically cause i remember you mentioning that he trained in Japan in the arts so i assumed that one of the arts he may have trained in is ninjutsu after you typed more about him.

i meant in general.

Originally Posted by Jaykane77

I agree with you guys if it works it works and doesn't matter if it was created last week...

I think the problem with "ninjutsu" is that people just won't be honest about it. The Shoninki and the Bansenshukai are being translated into English at the moment and the chapters DO NOT mention martial arts, but that doesn't mean they didn't fight. The leading historian in Japan (Nakashima Sensei) has these scrolls and he says that the scrolls do not mention a martial arts fighting system.

I have studied "ninjutsu" for over 10 years and achieved a 2nd Dan but now I know it's not ninjutsu but an old form of jujitsu, but that doesn't bother me because what I have learnt has worked because I have had to use it one before.

Triangle - you are really funny - keep it up!

what you mentioned is the more or less the same thing that Hatsumi, Tanemura, & Kawakami and other teachers mention

and those scrolls were part of the skill sets that make up ninjutsu cause its a system that developed over time into what it is today.

the way how a senior shihan explained to me is all these skill sets from the Shoninki to the Jujutsu & taijutsu ryuhas, weapons etc. are like pieced of cloth and "ninjutsu" is the thread that holds them together.

[Jaykane77]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

i wasnt talkin bout him specifically cause i remember you mentioning that he trained in Japan in the arts so i assumed that one of the arts he may have trained in is ninjutsu after you typed more about him.

i meant in general.

Yeah sorry I misread what you were saying and thought you were asking if he knew anything about it..

what you mentioned is the more or less the same thing that Hatsumi, Tanemura, & Kawakami and other teachers mention

and those scrolls were part of the skill sets that make up ninjutsu cause its a system that developed over time into what it is today.

the way how a senior shihan explained to me is all these skill sets from the Shoninki to the Jujutsu & taijutsu ryuhas, weapons etc. are like pieced of cloth and "ninjutsu" is the thread that holds them together.

I like the piece of cloth analogy.

Hey, I am on here to find out as much information as I can. I am not here arguing with anyone, I like discussions and all sorts of people are out there finding out information. I have met some people involved in Ninjutsu who believe everything they hear and some of it there is no evidence for. For more information the better I think.

It's cool to get people's view on the subject because it seems that Ninjustu and it's authenticity is a taboo subject for a lot of martial artists.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

yeah no problem. i feel the same way too.

[Joemoplata]

Then it really shouldn't matter what the history is one way or the other and it would seem having an opinion one way or the other is irrelevant. Kind of how I feel about the warring between the Gracie family...I realize that both sides are probably bending the truth a bit and we may never really have the answers, unfortunately, about what really happened.

But it's irrelevant to how I train and therefore I pick no side in the argument and don't really care.

[Chad]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

Then it really shouldn't matter what the history is one way or the other and it would seem having an opinion one way or the other is irrelevant. Kind of how I feel about the warring between the Gracie family...I realize that both sides are probably bending the truth a bit and we may never really have the answers, unfortunately, about what really happened.

But it's irrelevant to how I train and therefore I pick no side in the argument and don't really care.

Yeah, but you KNOW that your art was created by a scrawny white kid in the 1930's!


DISCLAIMER:I don't know the origin, it was just a light hearted j/k

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Chad

Yeah, but you KNOW that your art was created by a scrawny white kid in the 1930's!


DISCLAIMER:I don't know the origin, it was just a light hearted j/k

No, actually this is exactly the claim made by the Gracie Family!

[JuJido]

Has there actually been any fighting arts "created" in the last, say. 200 years? I can see adaptation and evolution of martial arts taking place, but has there actually been new arts born from scratch?