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Old 04-17-2008, 06:15 AM   #16 (permalink)

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What sources led you to this conclusion?
Sake;

The more I read that member's posts, the more I want to do what a banned member had done.....







I couldnt help myself.....
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:36 AM   #17 (permalink)

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Well for more information on the specific linages of the bujinkan ryu-ha I've previded a link. In the final pages of Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu written by Hatsumi in 1983 as a Bujinkan instructors handbook (Hatsumi's first book BTW) he says that writing any densho (written documents) was forbidden and that by writing that book it was like going against the former masters of those schools. To this one must ask which schools, to which there is no answer. None of the "ninjutsu" schools have a densho or at least the name sake of Togakure Ryu does not. Since Hatsumi has never proven his ninjutsu lineages we simply do not know, however the 6 samurai schools are proven to a certain degree for the most part.

As for Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu being ninjutsu/ninpo? Why is that Hatsumi changed the name from Togakure Ryu Ninpo/ninjutsu to Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu? To this I'll repeat what I was told when I was in the Bujinkan. Hatsumi used the term Togakure Ryu Ninpo because Togakure Ryu was the oldest of the nine Ryu-ha. In its modern format Hatsumi was teaching essentually self-defense and therefore the largest focus was on hand-to-hand (taijutsu) so that the school became known as Ninpo Taijutsu. Eventually Hatsumi's smaller dojo was expanded by the ninja-boom and several Western Instructors at the forfront of this was Hayes and Bussey. This was the creation of the Bujinkan trademark name. And then in the later nineties and earily 2000s the term budo taijutsu was used to seperate the art from the "ninja-name," but still contain the techniques of ninpo.

Personally all the name changing confusses me and there are still Bujinkan instructors who swear they teach ninjutsu event though Hatsumi claims to have taught only a handful of Westerns true ninjutsu, Hayes, Van Donk, Nova, Bussey & select group of others.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:17 AM   #18 (permalink)

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What sources led you to this conclusion?
I read it in a few books by Hayes and Hatsumi. I forget which books they were but when I go home tonight after work I'll look and see. Not all ninja were renegade samurai but some were.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:19 AM   #19 (permalink)

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Sake;

The more I read that member's posts, the more I want to do what a banned member had done.....







I couldnt help myself.....
47Martial....are you referring to my post? If so, why do you have a problem with it?
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:56 AM   #20 (permalink)

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47Martial....are you referring to my post? If so, why do you have a problem with it?
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Actually most of the ninja's back then were renegade Samurai that fled to the mountains to try and live in peace. Thats all the ninja wanted to do was to live in peace but they were constantly being attcked by various groups of people.

CONTRADICTS-

Some of the ninja did do assisnations for various war lords but it was not a common thing. The ninja did more intellegence gathering, survellence, and espionage, than anything else. They would relay false information to different war lords to start a war between the two and minipulate info so that the side they wanted to win would win. The ninja would use myth and rumor to put fear in their enemy so they would have an advantage over them. Hence the rumor that ninja can run up walls and walk on water and disappear at will.

Per some of the posts below;


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I'm no expert in Japanese martial arts but little history lesson I learned over the years tells me that Samurais and Ninjas are indeed different. Samurais live by certain code that they value more than their life. Ninjas were trained assasins who killed people for money.

I don't know about the actual samurai combat technique difference from Ninja techniques, but I don't think you can actually say that samurais were actually ninjas.
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No ninjas were not honorable. They put survival before service to the emperor. Not all ninjas were purely assassins. Most probably weren't. I think you have been watching too many movies.

Sake Sipper: "What sources led you to this conclusion? "
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:54 PM   #21 (permalink)

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The conclusion is, you like pie.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:44 PM   #22 (permalink)

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Wow, this thread is from 2005...
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:50 AM   #23 (permalink)

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Some posts here are quite intersting. It seems that there`s still a big prejudice about being "Ninja" in western world.
First of all the word "Ninja" was actually never used until modern times. They rather used "igamono, kogamono, shinobi no mono, rappa, suppa, negoro-shu, suika-shu etc." Leaving the word "Ninja" and concentrating on these names mabye allows you to see what they really were like. Fact is not every "Ninja" was an assassin or a spy, nor was he a kind of superman. It consisted of various groups (some refugees from China/Korea, some survivors of lost wars, local people defending their region etc.), spread over the country using special knowledge about warefare and tactics. These groups fought against each other or supported each other randomly. There was a periode in Japanese history called "Nanboku" in which in particular the region in today`s Mie (former Iga/Koga/Shiga)was pretty free of government. Local buddhist sects and population had a strong feeling about freedom and did not liked to be ruled by a strong leader. Therefore there was the chance to develope more freely and that might be one reason for independent groups (mentioned above. You would call them "Ninja").
Also samurai before 16th century were not so much in all the stuff you know about Bushido. There were almoust 100 years of war, and how are wars won... by cheating! Think of Oda Nobunaga who used guns. It was quite common to use guns in battle these times!!! It is hard to say what people really did, but with Edo jidai (Beginning 16th century) our all image about bushi/samurai started. So you can`t really divide a "ninja" is supposed to train just that school and nothing more. Rather training a live long, they applied (They had no 30 years to learn!!!). If they were not skilled they simply died (What was acctually the same for most of the Bushi, of whom some of them were "Ninja").
Speaking about Bujinkan and the schools, which are "true Ninja" ryuha and which would be not: well Gyokko ryu (which is supposed to be a "chinese school and therefore not ninjustu" (Berador wrote that)was the basic of many other schools (even supposed "Ninjutsu" schools). People did not just train one particular school, and calling something Chinese or Japanese doesn`t really make sense, because there was simply an exchange of knowledge. In fact even in China and Korea they had people spying and assassinating, secret societies. And if you leave the word "Ninja" away it becomes the same like in Japan.
You can easily compare that attitude to Toda sensei, who thought various schools and was sword instructor at the Koubusho. Therefore he had to be Bushi (but wait, he also was Soke of Togakure ryu). He finally inherited them to Takamatsu sensei who gathered and learnt new schools until we finally reached our today`s 9 schools in Bujinkan.That is not something new, but a habit as old as humans are.
So what makes you to be a "ninja"? In Bujinkan (when you have a good teacher) you have a good chance in learning some points.It is not just the physical confrontation, endless repetition of all the single waza and the skill to fight. Rather then winning a fight, be concerned about not to loose a fight. Social skills, psychology, knowing yourself (body and limits) and your environnment is pretty essential.
If you like to see modern practicing "Ninja" have a close watch on the CIA, which originally learnt from the Japanese intelligent service ("Ninja"), which was called Nakano gakko. And then listen to Hatsumi sensei and it becomes obvious what he is acctually doing for so long time.
So forget about movies etc., if you are interested how they used to be.
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Old 06-21-2009, 07:30 PM   #24 (permalink)

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So bujinkan doesn't teach much ninjutsu or what?
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Old 06-21-2009, 11:28 PM   #25 (permalink)

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So bujinkan doesn't teach much ninjutsu or what?
we do but people have a skewed perception of ninjutsu training.
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