Bujinkan

[NinjaMaster]

What's the relationship between Bujinkan and Ninjutsu?

[Berador]

The Bujinkan consists of 9 Ryu-Ha ("schools"), of which 4 are Samurai styles, 2 are chinese fighting-forms & 3 are Ninjutsu Ryu-Ha. Therefore some people tend to call it Nin-Jutsu (though i personally disagree on that). According to the sources i've come across (I.E. conversations with members of the BBT), i've come to the conclusion that only 13 / 15% of what they teach can possibly be Nin-Jutsu (since they only teach Nin-Jutsu from one of the Ryu-Ha (Togakure Ryu), and that's not even certain since Masaaki Hatsumi has been quoted for saying that he hasn't taught Nin-Jutsu since around (before?) '80).

Since the Genbukan & Jinenkan are offshots from the Bujinkan, i'd expect them to be very much alike on this point (but could be mistaken).

[complete]

So, Ninjutsu is a part of Bunjinkan?

[Berador]

It's a part of it, but not the whole thing. BBT is what many whould consider either A: Bujutsu. or B: MMA. (Depending on your approach to those definitions. I'd like to stress that this isn't an attack on the BBT, just the facts i've gathered. If they should prove inadequate / incorrect, please let me know).

Actually Bujinkan has 9 traditional schools 3 of which incorporate ninjutsu techniques and 2 which were known to be part of their fighting system. The remaining 4 are considered samarai traditions.

[Berador]

Originally posted by Guest@Sep 15 2005, 09:21 PM
Actually Bujinkan has 9 traditional schools 3 of which incorporate ninjutsu techniques and 2 which were known to be part of their fighting system. The remaining 4 are considered samarai traditions.

Quoted post

That is actually (allmost) exactly what i stated in my previous post, though i think i've got A: something totally backwards, or B: false information, since i was under the following impression:

Togakure Ryu Ninpo; Formally founded by Daisuke Togakure in (aprox.) 1162. Is Nin-Jutsu.

Gyokko Ryu Kosshi-jutsu; Alledgedly the oldest fighting system used by the Ninja. Origins are Chinese, and it can therefore NOT be counted as Nin-Jutsu (as Nin-Jutsu is Japanese and NOT Chinese).

Kumogakure Ryu Nin-Jutsu; A ryu specialized in (amongst other things) espionage. Is Ninjutsu.

Koto Ryu Koppojutsu; Translated as the Chinese Hand skill of Tiger attack. Again Chinese, and therefore NOT Nin-Jutsu.

Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hiken; Samurai Ryu-Ha, and therefore NOT Nin-Jutsu but Bu-Jutsu.

Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu; Based on the Chinese style of Cho Gyokko (unverified rumours claim that that person may be the same as Yo Gokko, the founder of Gyokko Ryu Koppojutsu, which whould then make Gikan Ryu a substyle of Gyokko Ryu. Yet again a non-Ninjutsu style, which is furthermore entirely based on CMA.

Gyokishin Ryu Ninpo; I don't know much about this Ryu, but i do know it to be Nin-Jutsu.

Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu; Again we are dealing with a Bu-Jutsu (Samurai) Ryu.

Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu; Not certain wether to call this Ryu a Bu-Jutsu or Ju-Jutsu, but it most certainly ain't Nin-Jutsu either.

I could be wrong, but these are the ingormations that i have.

[MrPickles]

The bujinkan dojo is an organization formed by soke hatsumi. Hatsumi was a student of To****sugu Takamatsu who was the last true warrior combat ninja and a master of togakure ryu ninjutsu. Though by his time the togakure ryu had already adopted so much of the techniques of from the other 8 clans that he might as well have been soke of all of them. There can be much further confusion as a lot of the other rye were samurai. This is because a lot of Samurai were actually ninja and thus many techniques that hatsumi teaches come from actual samurai clans.

Everything that Hatsumi teaches is ninjutsu.

[complete]

I'm no expert in Japanese martial arts but little history lesson I learned over the years tells me that Samurais and Ninjas are indeed different. Samurais live by certain code that they value more than their life. Ninjas were trained assasins who killed people for money.

I don't know about the actual samurai combat technique difference from Ninja techniques, but I don't think you can actually say that samurais were actually ninjas.

[MrPickles]

I'm not a martial arts expert but I hang around a lot of people who are. Your idea of ninjas being soley assassins is probably just exactly what the ruling class(samurai ) in japan would have wanted you to remember ninjas as.

The character "nin" in japanese simply means to persevere. Ninjas were more focused on survival then they were bushido and that is why they were written in history as being shameless assassins.


There were samurai families who were or became ninjas and being a ninja did not mean that you couldn't be or "act" like a samurai.


And so because of this there are many techniques in ninjutsu that come from originally samurai martial arts.

[NinjaMaster]

I guess that's possible. Still, the general impression that whether media portrayed or Samurais portrayed, the fact remains that Ninjas are not considered honorable occupation.

The ninja movies in the 80's by Sho Kosugi kind of portrayed Ninjas as the heroes with exceptional martial arts skills.

[MrPickles]

Originally posted by NinjaMaster@May 15 2006, 03:48 PM
I guess that's possible. Still, the general impression that whether media portrayed or Samurais portrayed, the fact remains that Ninjas are not considered honorable occupation.

The ninja movies in the 80's by Sho Kosugi kind of portrayed Ninjas as the heroes with exceptional martial arts skills.

Quoted post

No ninjas were not honorable. They put survival before service to the emperor. Not all ninjas were purely assassins. Most probably weren't. I think you have been watching too many movies.


I think the conclusion that I was trying to get to is that bujinkan dojo teaches ninjutsu. Not ninja gaiden or teenage mutant turtles ninjutsu but the actual ninjutsu that has existed in japan for many hundreds of years.


I don't really consider it possible I consider it a very real fact. I don't get my ideas about ninjas from 80's movies. I get my ideas about ninjas from students of students of grandmaster hatsumi.

[NinjaMaster]

I've never met any ninjas myself and yes, my exposure is only from the movies, which I never said is valid facts.

[MrPickles]

THen I guess you learned something today.


Anymore questions ?

[JadeDragon]

Originally Posted by complete

I'm no expert in Japanese martial arts but little history lesson I learned over the years tells me that Samurais and Ninjas are indeed different. Samurais live by certain code that they value more than their life. Ninjas were trained assasins who killed people for money.

I don't know about the actual samurai combat technique difference from Ninja techniques, but I don't think you can actually say that samurais were actually ninjas.

Actually most of the ninja's back then were renegade Samurai that fled to the mountains to try and live in peace. Thats all the ninja wanted to do was to live in peace but they were constantly being attcked by various groups of people. Some of the ninja did do assisnations for various war lords but it was not a common thing. The ninja did more intellegence gathering, survellence, and espionage, than anything else. They would relay false information to different war lords to start a war between the two and minipulate info so that the side they wanted to win would win. The ninja would use myth and rumor to put fear in their enemy so they would have an advantage over them. Hence the rumor that ninja can run up walls and walk on water and disappear at will.

[Sake Sipper]

Originally Posted by JadeDragon

Actually most of the ninja's back then were renegade Samurai that fled to the mountains to try and live in peace. Thats all the ninja wanted to do was to live in peace .

What sources led you to this conclusion?