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Other Martial ArtsDiscuss other martial arts here - such as Capoeira, Savate, Fencing, and Western Martial Arts, etc.
although the tai chi is alo for bettering your health/qi, atleast the chen style is used for combat aswell.
And your correct that most black men who study capioeira either werent porpoerly trained or self trained incorrectly. But there are a few decent inscricters arounf but like most african martial arts they are few and far between. Also alot of capoeira moves are based off of the african techniques of sanguar evasion.
although the tai chi is alo for bettering your health/qi, atleast the chen style is used for combat aswell.
And your correct that most black men who study capioeira either werent porpoerly trained or self trained incorrectly. But there are a few decent inscricters arounf but like most african martial arts they are few and far between. Also alot of capoeira moves are based off of the african techniques of sanguar evasion.
I was speaking of Tai Chi, and not Tai Chi Quan
Yes, they get wrapped up in the popularity and misled into it.....
As I said on another post, its sad that there arent many qualified black instructors of African arts abroad. I know of one and he is old and retired. He is much needed for the black youth.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
No. For the reasons above. It's like playing bluegrass with an electric guitar.
That would be quite the interesting musical display. And I still think that it is popular. You mentioned several brutal techniques in Capoeira. All of those could be useful in a fight and all are in Capoeira, so I'm confused why you say that Capoeira isn't useful.
Many styles and school don't center on fighting, but still prepare you to fight if the need arises. Capoeira, to me, doesn't seem like an exception.
No one seems to get the difference between Capoeira as a sport and assimilation of techniques in actual fighting. Those brutal techniques in MMA might be effective, but not Capoeira as a whole because of the fundamental basis of the art. But I digress. I keep stating the same thing over and over but it goes over your guy's heads. You guys need to play the "game" to understand I suppose.
Actually, Drimascus, what most of us likely aren't getting is what you call "assimilation of technique." See, many (I am not saying "all" here, I've known many karate-kas, even from my own school, who don't do this) students of the martial arts mentally evaluate, sometimes even subconsciously, each move that their body learns. Then, when the time arises, it's more likely to rise to the challenge, so to speak.
Does this make every student of the martial arts better than the streetfighter at a local bar? No. But that doesn't matter to me. If I wanted to learn to fight dudes down at the local bar, I'd go down there, down a few bottles, then pick a fight.
So my art doesn't let me fight some guy in "The Grease Pit" bar, where the local biker gang hangs out. "Why do you bother studying it?" you ask?
Simple. I don't plan on fighting the guy in "The Grease Pit." I don't even plan on drinking at "The Grease Pit." Any place where the patrons of "The Grease Pit" hang out, I don't plan to be. I study my art for two reasons. One, I am an artist. Two, for the confrontations that I can't avoid. These are usually initiated by someone who has not learned to handle themselves. These are the baseball/hockey/soccer/basketball dads flipping out because their kid got benched. These are the guys who want cuts at the grocery store. These are the people who freak out at McDonalds because the new Beanie Babies are running out quickly. These are the drunk guys stumbling down the street who challenge you because you were checking out their girl (who isn't anywhere to be seen). These are the fights I'm most likely to get into. I don't want to kill these people, so I don't need to learn how to do a knee-drop to their throats immediately prior to snapping their necks. And if I do get into a fight with a Hell's Angel, I've done something more seriously wrong than what art I chose to study. What the deuce was I doing in a situation that could get me into an altercation with a biker?
Last edited by sirdarksol; 03-30-2007 at 05:50 AM.
or maybe you need a decent meastre that actually knows the true value of the art. You saod you were self traine din it in the other thread so how would you fully undersatnd without a meastre that has direct instructer lineage that goes back to the slaves
Actually, Drimascus, what most of us likely aren't getting is what you call "assimilation of technique." See, many (I am not saying "all" here, I've known many karate-kas, even from my own school, who don't do this) students of the martial arts mentally evaluate, sometimes even subconsciously, each move that their body learns. Then, when the time arises, it's more likely to rise to the challenge, so to speak.
Does this make every student of the martial arts better than the streetfighter at a local bar? No. But that doesn't matter to me. If I wanted to learn to fight dudes down at the local bar, I'd go down there, down a few bottles, then pick a fight.
So my art doesn't let me fight some guy in "The Grease Pit" bar, where the local biker gang hangs out. "Why do you bother studying it?" you ask?
Simple. I don't plan on fighting the guy in "The Grease Pit." I don't even plan on drinking at "The Grease Pit." Any place where the patrons of "The Grease Pit" hang out, I don't plan to be. I study my art for two reasons. One, I am an artist. Two, for the confrontations that I can't avoid. These are usually initiated by someone who has not learned to handle themselves. These are the baseball/hockey/soccer/basketball dads flipping out because their kid got benched. These are the guys who want cuts at the grocery store. These are the people who freak out at McDonalds because the new Beanie Babies are running out quickly. These are the drunk guys stumbling down the street who challenge you because you were checking out their girl (who isn't anywhere to be seen). These are the fights I'm most likely to get into. I don't want to kill these people, so I don't need to learn how to do a knee-drop to their throats immediately prior to snapping their necks. And if I do get into a fight with a Hell's Angel, I've done something more seriously wrong than what art I chose to study. What the deuce was I doing in a situation that could get me into an altercation with a biker?
Very, very, nice....I LIKE IT...
"If there is No conflict, then there is NO VICTORY or DEFEAT"
("But have your insurance ready", insurance is in case something may happen)
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
No one seems to get the difference between Capoeira as a sport and assimilation of techniques in actual fighting. Those brutal techniques in MMA might be effective, but not Capoeira as a whole because of the fundamental basis of the art. But I digress. I keep stating the same thing over and over but it goes over your guy's heads. You guys need to play the "game" to understand I suppose.
Ok, I think I need to clarify what I said to avoid this repetition.
I think the major thing is that you are separating the individual techniques from the style itself, where as everyone else is not. This is why you see a few moves and say these moves are effective, where as we see a few moves and say Capoeira is effective. When it comes down to it this is nothing more than a semantical difference.
Many do understand that there are large pieces of Capoeira which are not geared to fighting, but these people are not faulting those aspects for not being good at fighting. These game ending techniques have their place in Capoeira, just not in the game. This is similar to how hooking legs and sweeps, although part of Tae Kwon Do, have no place in tournament Tae Kwon Do.
Drim, would you agree that Capoeira has its fighting side, its cultural side and its sport side? Above and beyond that, each of those sides fulfills the purpose of those sides? I think so. I think that is why it is an accepted style.
Hello this is my first post. Very interested by the discussion going on here as me and one of my mates (who also practices Capoeira, although at a different group), always argue about this.
I could go on for ages about Capoeira as self defence because there are so many things you could talk about.
Anyway...I think Capoeira is very ineffective in terms of self defence, anyone thinking that because it was effectively used during the times of slavery in Brazil has to remember that Capoeria at the time used a lot of Navalha (knifes), Lenco de Seda (silk scarves) and lots of Malandragem.
It could be used effectively but there are far more effective martial arts out there.
I can understand what Drimascus was saying, in a fight you would want to only use some of the kicks you learnt in lessons. You wouldn't do the ginga, au or anything like that, since you'd just be 'asking for it'.
I do acknowleadge that there are many effective techniques in Capoeira however, many of the kicks (pisao, martelo, ponteira) are borrowed from other martial arts (read: front kick, roundhouse kick, front snap kick) and were added to Capoeira in the 1930-40's by Mestre Bimba to create the Capoeira Regional style. Also in my very limited knowleadge of self defence I've always thought that using your hands instead of you feet was a far safer option.
Also a big part of Capoeira is Malandragem or Mandinga which roughly translates as trickyness or srewdness but can also mean street smarts, therefore the knowleadge of how to handle or even better, completely avoid situations.
Capoeira, as with any martial art, will put you in better stead than if you knew nothing. Ever since I started Capoeira I've become stronger and faster. Also since Capoeira provides more of a cardio exercise than any other martial art (in my humble opinion) you can rest assured safe in the knowleadge that you can outrun most people on the street.
Hello this is my first post. Very interested by the discussion going on here as me and one of my mates (who also practices Capoeira, although at a different group), always argue about this.
I could go on for ages about Capoeira as self defence because there are so many things you could talk about.
Anyway...I think Capoeira is very ineffective in terms of self defence, anyone thinking that because it was effectively used during the times of slavery in Brazil has to remember that Capoeria at the time used a lot of Navalha (knifes), Lenco de Seda (silk scarves) and lots of Malandragem.
It could be used effectively but there are far more effective martial arts out there.
I can understand what Drimascus was saying, in a fight you would want to only use some of the kicks you learnt in lessons. You wouldn't do the ginga, au or anything like that, since you'd just be 'asking for it'.
I do acknowleadge that there are many effective techniques in Capoeira however, many of the kicks (pisao, martelo, ponteira) are borrowed from other martial arts (read: front kick, roundhouse kick, front snap kick) and were added to Capoeira in the 1950's by Mestre Bimba to create the Capoeira Regional style. Also in my very limited knowleadge of self defence I've always thought that using your hands instead of you feet was a far safer option.
Also a big part of Capoeira is Malandragem or Mandinga which roughly translates as trickyness or srewdness but can also mean street smarts, therefore the knowleadge of how to handle or even better, completely avoid situations.
Capoeira, as with any martial art, will put you in better stead than if you knew nothing. Ever since I started Capoeira I've become stronger and faster. Also since Capoeira provides more of a cardio exercise than any other martial art (in my humble opinion) you can rest assured safe in the knowleadge that you can outrun most people on the street.
Thanks for the info, I found that very interesting.
Anyway...I think Capoeira is very ineffective in terms of self defence, anyone thinking that because it was effectively used during the times of slavery in Brazil has to remember that Capoeria at the time used a lot of Navalha (knifes), Lenco de Seda (silk scarves) and lots of Malandragem.
It could be used effectively but there are far more effective martial arts out there.
Sorry, I have several questions.
What is a Malandragem?
I thought the art was made to be mostly feet because it was made for the instance of having your hands tied like most slaves would be when being transported. Am I mistaken?
Are these weapons still involved in Capoeira? If not, why not? It seems these weapons increase the effectiveness of the moves (again I am talking about the moves, not the style or the game) while also being an important part of Capoeira culture.
Malandragem is a broad term which decribes many things, it can be used to describe a sort of carefree lifestyle, it can be used to describe bandits, and many more things besides.
In Capoeira it's used to descibe (mostly) trickyness, catching the person you are playing with off guard, masking your attacks or slipping though theirs.
Nobody quite knows why the feet are mainly used, it's tough to tell why exactly Capoeira (angola style anyway) looks like it does or how much it looked like the Capoeira of today. There's even debate (or so I'm told) whether or not early Capoeira was disguised as a dance since the Portuguese slave owners oppressed all aspects of African culture, including dancing!
Although I have seen hands and arms used quite a lot by some players, but often only to confuse opponents, cover their eyes, or shock them with a swift elbow or slap (usually without making contact). Actually, now that I think of it...there is a move called telefone, where you cup your hands and smack them over the ears of your opponent, bursting their eardrums, not to ever actually be used on anyone though.
As for knives, my own (limited) opinion is that knives were used a lot when Capoeira moved into the Brazilian favelas and was used by bandits. Because of this, modern Capoeira has tried to establish itself as being apart from knives, bandits and thieves.
Although, I think that Capoeira with any weapon (not just a knife) would be something visually impressive. Especially a weapon like nunchuck or 3 sectioned staff.
Capoeira anyone?
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