Capoeira Mythbusting

[N.B]

Originally Posted by BlackDragon

Actually they're were...yes, in just about every country that slaves were imported to. Even here in the U.S. (52 blocks aka jailhouse rock. Also other less known styles like knocking and kicking. In several places in the Carribean [Cuba(mani), Hattie(pinge, Jamaica(Bangaran and also Machet’e) Trinadad(-Kalenda or Kalinda and also Trinidad Stick Fighting aka 'Bois' or 'Sticklick'), Martinique(Danmye aka ladja), etc...] As well as other places in South America other than Just Brazil. Like Broma, an Afro-Venezuelan martial art. Yet even in Brazil, you have more than just capoeira like -Batuque, in which the famous capoeira mestre Bimba's father is said to have been a champion of, and it is also said that Bimba took influeinces of this to put add to his regional style of capoeira. Also another Afro Brazilian art Bate Coxa. Though none has reached the popularity status that capoeira has reached today...some are still practiced. Many of them are no longer known today, but some are still practiced like Ladja, Kalenda,(I even here knocking and kicking is still practiced secretly in some places in the South???) more are just resurfacing like 52 blocks. Oh, but the ones named are only an inch of a fraction of a piece of the tip of the ice berg. (oh, also let me add that some of this are very very similar to capoeira in various aspects. You can find videos of ladja on youtube (I forgot how to creat links. so just copy and past the links):
YouTube - Ag'ya Danmye Ladja Compilation

or: YouTube - Damyé ladja martinique sport de combat et tambour

or: YouTube - ladja game at Saint-Marie

or: YouTube - Damye danmye ladja art martial Martinique combat fight sport

Well well, those clips were very interesting, and very fun to watch, thank you.
My original point was that Angola capoeira wasn't transported over to Brazil in its pure form as we see it today capoeira, even prior to the creation of the regional style, must have changed to some extent while it was in Brazil, otherwise we'd have seen capoeira all over the world.
However I never realised that the similar martial arts which came from the same African MA influences looked so very similar. It has completely changed my view on how much of capoeira came from Africa.
+rep.

Originally Posted by Gambatte Karate

I have watched a few different capoeria demonstrations and sparred against a few people who "claimed" to practice it. The "practitioners" couldn't fight to save their lives, and the demonstrations looked like dance to me. I could see little USEFULT technique in it, but....I don't practice it, and I have no desire to practice it. Could I do the moves? Not right now, but with a bit of practice and a little instruction, probably. Would I ever use it in a self defense situation? Probably not. Thats the main reason I've never taken it up. If I want to learn how to dance, I'll take a hip hop class somewhere. But, I've been accused of being a jerk too...

Hip hop dancing wishes it was as cool as capoeira.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by N.B

Hip hop dancing wishes it was as cool as capoeira.

I have to totally agree there. I've even seen several hip-hop dancers rip off capoeira moves.

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

I have to totally agree there. I've even seen several hip-hop dancers rip off capoeira moves.

Now this is an interesting question... can Hip Hop and Break Dancing steal moves from Capoeira when there is a a high probability that much of Break Dancing was inspired by Capoeira to begin with?

I say that unlike a martial art, Break Dancing doesn't have a defined set of moves or techniques you are and are not allowed to do. Likewise, Break Dancing doesn't have moves or techniques which are more effective than other techniques "on the street" (street the way we mean it, not the normal definition). So, I am thinking that Break Dancing can be influenced by Capoeira, but it cannot actually rip off from Capoeira.

I would love to have a dissenting opinion on this one. Thoughts or comments?

[BlackDragon]

Since we are now in the area of break dancing/capoeira. I thought it would be a proper time to bring up the following points. By the way, there is a whole lot more to what I'm posting here. The sad part is that I can't find it, but I've read lots on the topic before. Here goes....

Some think break dancing is simply a passing fad that will soon wear out its welcome. But the form dates back at least 300 years to Africa, when warriors danced to show solidarity. Breaking has appeared at different times, under different names or sometimes, without a name. Earnest Smith, a jazz historian and author of The Black Book, a history of black culture, has been collecting film clips of dancing, dating back to the early days of film in the late 1800's. He describes a 1903 two-minute silent newsreel from the Thomas Edison Company, featuring three black teenagers on a city sidewalk. One plays the harmonica, one claps his hands, and another dances. When Smith shows the clip to audiences, it gets a "shock of recognition," for the dancing looks just like the break dancing of today.
-------

Not everyone though is entirely happy with the success break dancers have had. Alexis Smith, a 20-year-old dancer with the Alvin Ailey Theater, for instance, says she hopes break dancing is a fad that will soon pass. Breakers, she says, are taking jobs away form professional dancers. The trade journals Variety and Show Business, advertise for breakers to act in commercials, films, plays. "We can't wait until the whole thing passes over," Smith says. "I went to audition for a movie the other day, where there was a call for dancers. They (the breakers) took some of the spots away from us. I don' really resent it, though, because I know it's just a passing fad."

Sally Sommer, a dance critic and historian, begs to differ. She says the dance form has a tradition 300 years old. Sommer writes that break-dancers are "living links in the ancient tradition whose roots run deep into Afro-American culture, whose values are like those of an older and vigorous African heritage." Sommer suggests that breaking comes from a martial arts form in Africa, in the area now called Angola. The dance was performed by warriors in the 1500's and 1600's, a way of showing solidarity, strength and skills in improvisation. In various other parts of the world, the form known as breaking here goes by other names. In Brazil, for example, there is capoeira. Even in the U.S., the form has surfaced under different names. "Those who say breaking is a passing form are wrong," Sommer says. "It may become popular in the public eye and then subside, but is ain't passing!"

Jazz historian Smith says that most dances use steps recycled from other times. "Every 10 years or so, the dances surface again," he says. Sommer adds that it is a "subliminal" tradition. "It gets recycled according to different needs. Each generation believes or must believe it is creating something new." The fact that the form is now being passed on from older dancers to younger ones is evidence that the tradition continues.
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Link to the above passages: NPR : Breakdancing, Present at the Creation

______
This next passage comes from this link: THE WARRIOR'S CORNER - Powered by Doteasy.com
MARTIAL MOVEMENT
The acrobatic, aggressive, fight like movements in breakdancing is nothing new, nor did they come from Capoeira, as many believe.

The B-Boys who “created” breakdancing were simply rediscovering ritual warrior dances, as seen among the Peuhl of Guinea, the Akamba of Kenya and warriors from Senegal, The Gambia and the Ivory Coast. These ritual warrior dances are identical in structure to breakdancing and include somersaults, back spins, elbow spins and the holding of contorted poses.

Documentation from as early as 1570A.D. shows commentary from the Portuguese on the African skills of evasion, called Sanga in the Ki-Kongo language, or Sanguar in the Ndonga language. The Portuguese witnessed these skills demonstrated by the Imbare (elite warriors similar to the Samurai of Japan), who were able to twist, turn and somersault in order to avoid projectiles (arrows and thrown weapons) as well as swords, knives and clubs.
_________

(the below passage comes from this link: BreakDancing essays
It is believed that Break dancing roots came from the time slaves were in America they used their feet to communicate with each other because they couldn’t use any drums. No matter where break dancing has its roots, it broke out and hit the streets of New York hard. The break dancing fad first started in the clubs of the Bronx when DJ’s changed records and dancers would fill the resulting musical breaks, also called break beats. During these breaks is where “break dancing” got its name and from there it caught on to the phenomenon.

Break dancing itself uses flipping, spinning and pivoting on the head and hands, which also called “breaking,” “up rock,” which is the mock-combat style and also “webby,” which is

[BlackDragon]

I wish I could find exactly what i'm looking for...but the main point these articles and studies are trying to say...is that like breakdancing, like capoeira, like danmye aka ladja, and several other arts that with ties to slavery all trace their roots back to the same place. They are not moves borrowed. They are cut from the same tree. Interesting!

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Chapel

Now this is an interesting question... can Hip Hop and Break Dancing steal moves from Capoeira when there is a a high probability that much of Break Dancing was inspired by Capoeira to begin with?

I say that unlike a martial art, Break Dancing doesn't have a defined set of moves or techniques you are and are not allowed to do. Likewise, Break Dancing doesn't have moves or techniques which are more effective than other techniques "on the street" (street the way we mean it, not the normal definition). So, I am thinking that Break Dancing can be influenced by Capoeira, but it cannot actually rip off from Capoeira.

I would love to have a dissenting opinion on this one. Thoughts or comments?

I think it is a matter if music is being played or not.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I think it is a matter if music is being played or not.

But there's music being played during both breakdancing routines and capoeira practice.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

But there's music being played during both breakdancing routines and capoeira practice.

I guess you missed it.....

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I guess you missed it.....

Guess I did. That can happen when you've been up most of the night with a crying baby.
I'm doing good to be able to type today.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

Guess I did. That can happen when you've been up most of the night with a crying baby.
I'm doing good to be able to type today.

Crying baby....ah yes....those were the days.......

I sorry, I cant remember if it was a boy or girl and the name....

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Crying baby....ah yes....those were the days.......

I sorry, I cant remember if it was a boy or girl and the name....

A boy. His name is Dylan. And, already, when he gets upset he throws punches and front kicks.

[Torre]

He's like Bas Rutten's daughter then She was armbarring him while having her diaper changed according to Bas.

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

I guess you missed it.....

He is saying that Capoiera and dancing are the same thing.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by Chapel

He is saying that Capoiera and dancing are the same thing.

Ah, I see. Thanks, Chapel, for filling in where my now-dormant brain cells are.

[BlackDragon]

Originally Posted by Chapel

He is saying that Capoiera and dancing are the same thing.

Ah...but capoeira is not "just" dancing. They are the same thing to a degree...but capoeira is so much more than just dancing. This is where a lot of people get lost...in that very same assumption. Yes, it does have dance elements in it, but various other elements as well. Just because a style has some elements off dance in it doesn't make it just a dance.

Their are various other styles with some elements of dance in it...some where within the traditions or ritual...yet people would never see that, and then say oh, that style is just a dance....Look at the traditional ritual dances of Muay Thai. There are also dance aspects in the style of Pencak Silat. And let us not forget the Lion dance is greatly associated with kung-fu. The lion dance has close relations to kung fu and the dancers are usually members of the local kung fu club. They practise in their club and some train hard to master the skill..

Below is a passage I found that also suggest that okinawan kobudo also has a past in which dance was incorparated. Here goes the passage. At the end I'll include the link.

here goes:

It's been suggested that the traditional Okinawan dances or odori
played a part in the development of kobudo kata. They portrayed
movements from their agricultural life, including the use of simple
tools. We can see this most in the forms for the eku that feature
rowing motions. . . .

The influence from the dance is interesting because we also see it
other martial arts traditions - some gung-fu and more recently
capoeira. It also adds an interesting validity to the musical form
concept. Enough written evidence exists to prove that formalized
kobudo kata existed on the Ryukyuan chain of islands as early as the
1480s. The first account refers to Yaeyama, an island group south of
Okinawa. The tribal chieftain, Oyekei Akahachi is credited with
formulating bo and eku techniques and converting them into ritualized
dance.?
The History of Kobudo


This link is from the Karate and Kobudo Resource Page. This site has
many links to short historical pieces, details about weapons used in
kobudo, short stories regarding the philosophy of kobudo, and other
interesting information.
http://www.shuriway.co.uk/mainpage.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ORIGINS OF KOBUDO

It is long believed that the weapons used in kobudo are derived from
simple farm implements of the past. This happened because of the
weapons ban put into place in the 1500s. However, there is a growing
sentiment that this may not be the true origin of all of the weapons
used in kobudo.

A Boston-based organization supporting and promoting Okinawan martial
arts forms has this to say on their website:

?While there is little historical evidence to work with to date the
origins of Okinawan weapon arts, there are references to staff
techniques and weapon dances going back as far as the 1500?s. Many
sources credit the weapon bans of king Sho Shin O (1507) with the
impetus for the development of the current kobudo arsenal. It is said
that due to this ban on the owning of swords and spears, the Okinawans
developed local tools to use as weapons. Later, from 1609 onward, it
is said these skills were further developed and used to combat the
Satsuma invaders.

(more at the link: Google Answers: Okinawan Kobudo History links - clarified question, new price

Note:
If you look back in history...many martial arts have ties to dance, various traditional rituals, even religion. Not because that particular martial art is a dance, some sort of ritual, or a relgion...but because, to the people...it is a way of life, and so they put their lively hood into to it...and everything that makes their culture who they are. It makes it no less of a martial art. It makes it a life style~