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Philosophical DiscussionDo you have a philosophical view to martial arts styles, training, etc. ?
Do you agree with this statement "if you want to prove your better than someone step in the Octagon and prove it !" (I just did my GCSE History paper thats why it looks like an exam question )
well if you wanna prove your better then someone your gonna have to fight that person. stepping in the octagon when they dont or havnt, wont prove that you can beat them
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Leisure may not be an option for this indefatigable human instrument of martial arts. It is the Tao, sort to speak passably, that he his set on such credenda, to which he may not abdicate. It is the WAY, the Do, of what certitude he has.
Considering that MMA is the closest we get to actual fighting in a controlled environment, I say yes. And I want to do so at the amateur level, though only after a few years of cross training and physical conditioning, because right now I'd get mauled even at that level.
Considering that MMA is the closest we get to actual fighting in a controlled environment, I say yes. And I want to do so at the amateur level, though only after a few years of cross training and physical conditioning, because right now I'd get mauled even at that level.
But thats the fundamental issue; it isn't "actual fighting" perhaps combat would be a better term. While as a sport MMA does take allot of fluff of out martial arts bouts it is no where close to a brawl or a streetfight. It does nothing to prepare you for those situations.
Now that said, MMA does and has proven that sportsmenship is a destorier to the combativeness of any martial arts system. For example, all those strikers who were experts at point sparring and even the full contact fighters had a huge training gap. A gap that came from training based on those rules. MMA suffers from this same weakness to a lesser extent; since the sport forces others to train at all ranges. So while I don't think that MMA does anything for self-defnse training or preparing someone for a streetfight; it does a far better job of it then most other combat sports.
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My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
But thats the fundamental issue; it isn't "actual fighting" perhaps combat would be a better term. While as a sport MMA does take allot of fluff of out martial arts bouts it is no where close to a brawl or a streetfight. It does nothing to prepare you for those situations.
Now that said, MMA does and has proven that sportsmenship is a destorier to the combativeness of any martial arts system. For example, all those strikers who were experts at point sparring and even the full contact fighters had a huge training gap. A gap that came from training based on those rules. MMA suffers from this same weakness to a lesser extent; since the sport forces others to train at all ranges. So while I don't think that MMA does anything for self-defnse training or preparing someone for a streetfight; it does a far better job of it then most other combat sports.
But thats the fundamental issue; it isn't "actual fighting" perhaps combat would be a better term. While as a sport MMA does take allot of fluff of out martial arts bouts it is no where close to a brawl or a streetfight. It does nothing to prepare you for those situations.
Now that said, MMA does and has proven that sportsmenship is a destorier to the combativeness of any martial arts system. For example, all those strikers who were experts at point sparring and even the full contact fighters had a huge training gap. A gap that came from training based on those rules. MMA suffers from this same weakness to a lesser extent; since the sport forces others to train at all ranges. So while I don't think that MMA does anything for self-defnse training or preparing someone for a streetfight; it does a far better job of it then most other combat sports.
That's why I said "in a controlled environment". I have no intention to compare it to a self-defense situation, I want to do it for what it is, the most realistic form of sport fighting.
That's why I said "in a controlled environment". I have no intention to compare it to a self-defense situation, I want to do it for what it is, the most realistic form of sport fighting.
But more self-defense/street effectives ways of training exist outside of the sport context. So while MMA maybe the most effective form of training within sports, it is not the most effective way of training for the street in itself.
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
That's why I said "in a controlled environment". I have no intention to compare it to a self-defense situation, I want to do it for what it is, the most realistic form of sport fighting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven
But more self-defense/street effectives ways of training exist outside of the sport context. So while MMA maybe the most effective form of training within sports, it is not the most effective way of training for the street in itself.
But more self-defense/street effectives ways of training exist outside of the sport context. So while MMA maybe the most effective form of training within sports, it is not the most effective way of training for the street in itself.
Very good point, Draven. I get tired of folks saying that, just because someone is proven in MMA, they will be effective in a real world, self defense situation. While they may be, it's better to harken to WC Lun's signature: You will fight like you train.
__________________ "An eye for an eye only blinds the world." - Ghandi
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
Very good point, Draven. I get tired of folks saying that, just because someone is proven in MMA, they will be effective in a real world, self defense situation. While they may be, it's better to harken to WC Lun's signature: You will fight like you train.
Yes, but shouldnt self defense also be on a study of mentality and/or understanding of social, environment, human behavior, etc...?
Yes, but shouldnt self defense also be on a study of mentality and/or understanding of social, environment, human behavior, etc...?
Oh, absolutely. Which is why, to be fully prepared and effective in your own self defense, you should be well-versed in those subjects as well. And you certainly hit on something there because a lot of MA schools that preach self defense don't instruct their students in criminal psychology or violence de-escalation.
__________________ "An eye for an eye only blinds the world." - Ghandi
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa
Very good point, Draven. I get tired of folks saying that, just because someone is proven in MMA, they will be effective in a real world, self defense situation. While they may be, it's better to harken to WC Lun's signature: You will fight like you train.
Yea but when you are good in MMA, you can defend against and use punches, kicks, takedowns, clinch, grappling and you have proven that you can use those methods. In most TMAs you never prove that you can use that stuff. That is why people say MMA is better for self defense. If you cant and dont practice fighting in all those ranges how can you say you are ready to defend yourself? How do you know your special moves, that you have never used on someone, like putting your finger in their eye are going to really do what your instructor says? The whole point about MMA is that you actually practice your moves against a fully resisting opponent. This is why in a full contact fight, MMA fighters generally beat TMA guys. The TMA guys dont practice the same way. And I didnt say all, meaning every single TMA guy, but in general most or the majority.
And MMA isnt self defense training, but its really good for self defense. Who can argue that full contact fighting isnt good for self defense? MMA guys just argue that if you arent training to fight at all ranges against full resistance, that you probably cant really use those moves. They dont train against weapons or multiple opponents and they dont claim to.
but honestly, if you put an mma fighter and tma fighter on the street in a self defense situation, I would put my money on the mma guy doing better each time. mma guys are generally tougher and more likely to have street awareness as well, at least from my experience. Just walk into an MMA gym, then a TKD dojo, there is a huge difference in the mind frame and type of people in each place.
Yea but when you are good in MMA, you can defend against and use punches, kicks, takedowns, clinch, grappling and you have proven that you can use those methods. In most TMAs you never prove that you can use that stuff. That is why people say MMA is better for self defense. If you cant and dont practice fighting in all those ranges how can you say you are ready to defend yourself? How do you know your special moves, that you have never used on someone, like putting your finger in their eye are going to really do what your instructor says? The whole point about MMA is that you actually practice your moves against a fully resisting opponent. This is why in a full contact fight, MMA fighters generally beat TMA guys. The TMA guys dont practice the same way. And I didnt say all, meaning every single TMA guy, but in general most or the majority.
And MMA isnt self defense training, but its really good for self defense. Who can argue that full contact fighting isnt good for self defense? MMA guys just argue that if you arent training to fight at all ranges against full resistance, that you probably cant really use those moves. They dont train against weapons or multiple opponents and they dont claim to.
but honestly, if you put an mma fighter and tma fighter on the street in a self defense situation, I would put my money on the mma guy doing better each time. mma guys are generally tougher and more likely to have street awareness as well, at least from my experience. Just walk into an MMA gym, then a TKD dojo, there is a huge difference in the mind frame and type of people in each place.
And though I agree to a degree, TMA upon their introduction were actually MMA. They just fell into the trap of not "upgrading".
(BTW-MMA ARE ACTUALLY PRACTICING TMA, THOUGH THEY ARE MIXING)
But practicing full resistance doesnt always win all battles. A little mentality goes a long way.
1.Yea but when you are good in MMA, you can defend against and use punches, kicks, takedowns, clinch, grappling and you have proven that you can use those methods. 2.In most TMAs you never prove that you can use that stuff. That is why people say MMA is better for self defense. If you cant and dont practice fighting in all those ranges how can you say you are ready to defend yourself? 3. How do you know your special moves, that you have never used on someone, like putting your finger in their eye are going to really do what your instructor says? 4.The whole point about MMA is that you actually practice your moves against a fully resisting opponent. This is why in a full contact fight, MMA fighters generally beat TMA guys. 5.The TMA guys dont practice the same way. And I didnt say all, meaning every single TMA guy, but in general most or the majority.
And MMA isnt self defense training, but its really good for self defense. 6. Who can argue that full contact fighting isnt good for self defense? 7.MMA guys just argue that if you arent training to fight at all ranges against full resistance, that you probably cant really use those moves. They dont train against weapons or multiple opponents and they dont claim to.
8.but honestly, if you put an mma fighter and tma fighter on the street in a self defense situation, I would put my money on the mma guy doing better each time. 9. mma guys are generally tougher and more likely to have street awareness as well, at least from my experience. Just walk into an MMA gym, then a TKD dojo, there is a huge difference in the mind frame and type of people in each place.
Sorry this is so long but it should explain my point in detail...
1. I even provided links to point this out in another thread, but traditional koryu style jujitsu (samurai jujitsu) used have an event called a Shiai (tournament) in which fighters fought all out, this was especially popular for certain aikijujutsu ryu-ha. These shiai ended up with people being serverely hurt, there was no rules and they were more common to duels them modern sporting events.
I point this out because TMAs have evolved from battlefield tested combat arts that took "training" to an extreme because that "training" was actual combat. The culture that supported that training was based on warfare and in warfare everything is endurance. When the Samurai class was abolished MA took at step back, because who needed swords and jujutsu when you have rifles and cannons. Many Jujutsu schools left out that harder aspect of such training to keep the traditions.
Kano termed Shiai into a structure contest with rules, and philiosphies gear toward discipline, respect and education. To that regard you have two trends sport applications of a traditional martial arts and water-down less combative forms of practicing training methods but not the traditional training. This has been an issue with almost all martial arts throughout the world, these modern traditions of martial arts are what I call neo-traditionalism; a so called ancient tradition that aspires to modern direction, essentually a modern/modernized tradition.
I point this out because in those retrospects at one time all TMA had such a well rounded level of training, but the need for either sport; where rules had restricted which techniques can be used (Karate: Striking only or Judo: Grappling Only focused on throws) or neo-traditionalism; where actual hard training was removed to keep alive the "tradition" have resulted in the current one sided restrictions on modern TMAs.
2- I agree with you 110% and that why I refer to most TMAs as Neo-Traditionalism as explained above.
3- Well as I stated above, allot of TMAs did apply those "special moves" at one time, in fact they weren't special moves but common basic techniques at one time. In a more modern context they are "special moves" because sport application doesn't allow them.
4- I disagree with this, most MMA fighters will beat a TMA fighter not because the resisting opponent arguement. A TKD point fighter practices his skills against a resisting opponent but rules are different. Put an MMA fighter in point sparring match and see how well they do there. Thats not to say an MMA fighter doesn't hold certain advantages as being more well rounded in techniques and training and more time spent on contact sparring. But, in a street fight its not always that level of training that matter.
5- The training for most TMAs is based on the neo-traditional concept or preserving a tradition (how you preserve a warrior art without "war" is beyond me?) or has been redefined into modern sport budo. Again I agree that the current modern trends of so called TMAs are weak but we must remember they are from a much stronger foundation and if TMAs begin to move back to that foundation they would be uncomparable to their modern selves.
6. I can, and very easily...
First, yes the technical foundation at all ranges and against a resisting opponent is a good base. But, only as a base.
Second, there is more to surviving a street fight or self-defense situation then the technical foundation of fighting skills. These additional but required skill sets are sensory awareness, core weapons(such as sticks and knives can be easily improvised) & base/laymen psychology; to address body language, understanding human nature, de-escelation techniques and even conditioning your own mind opperate on a different level of preception.
7. But see, allot of TMAs (most) do spar and most do fight at contact levels but they also do so based on the rules of the sport or reject even using those skills in sparring because the focus is on keeping the knowledge of the tradition and not the spirit of the tradition alive. Nor do they train in the other aspects I mentioned above, which means that nether is all that prepared for a street fight.
8. I'd put my monry on the MMA fighter being a better fighter but the TMA person will most likely defuse and avoid the conflict. Which makes them less likely to get seriously hurt.
9. I might agree with that in part, allot of MMA guys are really tough atheletically and as for street awareness, thats somewhat debatible. Since allot of MMA fans and fighters come from the streets I might see where that could be said. But, not all streets are the same and neither are all stylists. An MMA fighter and TKD fighter from the same ghetto might have the same street awareness but if the TKD fighter trains that awareness and adds to it he/she might have better street awarenss. Basically it comes down to not which system is better but which system trains for that specific environment and since both are sports, neither MMA or TMA is prepared for the street unless we are talking a system based on warfare, which even though neo-traditionalists claim said tradition (which they don't) then both have something greatly lacking don't they?
In short and simple truth, neither are prepared for the street and any arguement that one is better is purely idiotic. It is not to call anyone indiot but the foolishness of seeking only the weaknesses in system only blinds you to the strengths. Studies at Harvard, Yale and several others have proven that certain so called mystical practices have a scientic basis in self-hypnosis. More so, philosophy is the root of modern psychology. Yet, those systems lack effective training methods which serve to make them more combative.
So the point of becoming better means seeing the best in something and if worthy incorperate into your art. The Okinawans and even several Japanese martial arts always held the practice renaming the style/school of the practicer when the practicer became a master. The idea was when you reached a level when knowledge became nature you formed your are style, your knowledge and experience was used to further the art as a whole. Does that spirit of self improvement dominate MA culture, or are we all just puppeting our teachers without need for growth?
"Alive a plant is soft and pliable, dead is it brittle and stiff." Lao Tsu
Are we as martial artists alive or dead in our thinking?
__________________
My Personal Mantra:
Where I walk, I walk alone...
Given unto the winds, I am free...
And yet a slave to my own soul...
but honestly, if you put an mma fighter and tma fighter on the street in a self defense situation, I would put my money on the mma guy doing better each time. mma guys are generally tougher and more likely to have street awareness as well, at least from my experience. Just walk into an MMA gym, then a TKD dojo, there is a huge difference in the mind frame and type of people in each place.
from my experience at my old school, and a couple of mma gyms i went to and was going to for a while, my old tkd school was much harder/tougher. and honestly had better fighters. i went to a muay thai class and i was disssapointed. they couldnot fight at all, all of them were ok at jiujitsu but could not strike. they thought they were aweome fighters because they lifted weights but they wernt good strikers at all. they couldnt kick at all, really all they threw were round kicks and they were slow ugly round kicks it was like watered down muay thai, really. there were a few good boxers. this was at the gracie sports center, and at the brentwood mma schools it was the same. might i say that the gracie sports center is considered one of the best mma schools in the US?
i guess i would put my money on a mma guy because they train grappling but thats the only reason why?
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